Registered User
Posts: 166
(2/15/04 12:36 pm) Reply
A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
My roommate and I have recently started playing NWN, and thus far, we love it. We're only on chapter two of the original campaign, and we both own SoU expansion pack, and multiclass in the expansion prestige classes.
My first question is this:
If I go out and purchase Hordes of the Underdark, will I be able to install it, and play a HoTU-class character (weapon master) with my roommate, who does not have HoTU?
Secondly, my character is currently a rogue. I'm big on the sneak attacks, even though I realize the limited usefulness against many (undead) creatures. I planned originally to multiclass with assassin, is this a good choice? I'm not quite clear on how the "death attack" works in relation to "sneak attack". Are they two seperate abilities? Or will it be an all inclusive mega sneak attack? As for my third multiclass, I was rather hoping to go toward Weapon Master once I purchase HoTU, but the Shadow Dancer's "hide in plain sight" ability is also very appealing. I'd appreciate any input or opinions on this, as I'm extremely new to D&D type games in general (excluding everquest, which doesn't quite count), and have only been playing NWN for a week now.
Third and finally, weapons. Is there any weapon speed in this game, in the same way that there is in EQ? (IE, weapon delay between rounds). How does this work? Is there any reason to use, say, a kukri, over a katana, when the katana has much more damage (1d10) as opposed to the kukri's 1d4? Any insight into this would be appreciated. Thanks!
Vagabond Registered User
Posts: 334
(2/16/04 3:15 pm) Reply
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
Under 3rd (and 3.5) rules, they did away with weapon speed as a balancing factor. What they did instead was crit ranges and multiplier.
Theoretically, over a large enough sample size, your 1d4/17-20 butter knife should do the same dmg as my 1d12/4x scythe. This, of course, stops everyone and their brother from simply being a katana wielding nightmare and instead pick weapons based on flavor or role playing reasoning. Too bad all it does for me is make every weapon into A_Generic_Weapon_05.
I _Liked_ the fact that an insane swashbuckler dex/rapier build attacked 3 of his 5 times at Timer step1, while the freak with the over sized scythe always attacked last, but when he hit you, you knew it. (I'll fully admit that some weapons were mis-balanced however. See Katana for "strictly better than most" and Scythe (go go speed 15!) as "strictly worse")
However, I'm playing through SoU (with HoTU installed) right now as a crit-freak greatsword warrior. When I played as a monk through the original campaign (way before the expansions), I seem to remember getting multiple attacks in while a Knockdown was in effect. I'm not talking about multi attacks per round either, simply knockdown lasting more than the remainder of the "round". Now? I can chain knockdown, but I can't seem to get any swings while they're down. So it seems that a Greatsword is slower than fists.
Ninen of Saryrn
The War Council
Rock scratched his nose. ‘Is play on words,’ he said. ‘Very hard to translate. But basically, she say "Is that the legendary Sceptre of Magma who was King of the Mountain, Smiter of Thousands, Yea, Even Tens of Thousands, Ruler of the Golden River, Master of the Bridges, Delver in Dark Places, Crusher of Many Enemies",’ he took a deep breath, "‘in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
You have to have all the expansions to play on a server with HoTU on it, online that is. Not sure how it applies to LAN games. I'd suggest both of you getting HoTU, I haven't even gotten around to the single player campaign yet but its a blast online.
Weapon masters are a bit nuts, personally I think they are over powered. Make a test module and try out different builds of characters. Just make a NPC that gives 100,000 exp and level them up and try them out.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
Weaponmasters are really one one trick pony though. Throw some constructs or undead their way, and they become an underpowered fighter IMO. If you let them min/max and put them against critable things, it can get ugly quickly.
If you are talking PvP. the Palemaster/Monk builds just crush a weaponmaster.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
Been playing weaponmasters quite a bit; I think they are really solid. The biggest issue is the requirements are fairly tough to make. I find adding in rogue levels really helps them a lot... between a line of traps and a big sword... you are whooping out damage even vs. undead/constructs. The big thing about them is they are not one trick dudes... you've got whirlwind to clean up trash, you've got a load of ki strikes for big stuff. With a rogue, you have traps and criticals.
I have yet to see a palemaster-monk that doesn't suck. They sacrifice way to much BAB on the palemaster stuff. I'd just rather go monk16-war4-monk17+.
I think a high level bard with curse song, extended notes is truly insane. A little bit of expertise goes a long way.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
When I said weaponmasters are one trick ponies, I meant the class itself, not the possible class combinations to get there.
Weaponmaster= one weapon with tons of crits. Take away that ability and they suffer greatly. Of course taking some rogue levels gives great flexibility, but the weaponmaster prestige class is very narrow, just how a prestige class should be.
I will always take an epic level fighter over an epic weaponmaster. The greater influx of feats is truly amazing.
I guess I should have said monk/wizard/palemaster (as you need some spell casting). NWN is screwy on how it handles the multiclassing and monk attacks (as separate issues). In a real PnP game it would not even be close, but the multiclass system is broken and allows that combination to become quite lethal. Just seeing monks dual wielding Kamas and getting 10 attacks a round makes me cringe. It shouldn't do that, but the engine is obviously pretty limited.
Only in NWN (and specific D&D games) can you multiclass the monk the way you want. Normally as soon as you take a non monk class (notice I said normally ) you are barred from the class forever (War 4, monk then on would work though). Another way NWN doesn't handle the system well
Bards are truly sick because the NWN engine doesn't handle it all correctly either IIRC. But within the game, yeah it can get ugly quick.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
Yeah, monks get attacks based on (level-3), rather than level-5.
The
The problem is monk/wiz/pale is the BAB thing.
wiz is a 1:2 progression, lvl 5 = +2 BAB
palemaster is a 1:2 progression
monk is only a 3:4 progression
you stats are all over the place too... monks need strength, dex,wisdom ... and you are going to need some intelligence too. You probably aren't wielding weapons... so no attack bonus's there.
The best I have come up with is monk to 21, then wiz 5, then push pale master. Downside... you are sitting at around level 30 before your palemaster stuff is kicking in...
I look at that and think.... this is better than monk16-war-4-monk21-druid15... how?
-----
Bards are really weak for a long, long, long time. Coming from PnP D&D, they lose their single most powerful ability... the free suggestions. Still Bard-Cleric(animal,healing)-Shadowdancer is once of my favorite combinations to play in NWN.... and it ends up not being bad.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
heh, havent tried palemaster, but my monk/dragon disciple kicks some serious butt. 1 lvl of sorc to be able to get the DD class.
Kalwraith Registered User
Posts: 52
(2/23/04 7:15 am) Reply
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
To answer your sneak/death attack question, yes, they stack.
My 5 Rogue/5 Assassin I play on my regular PW has:
Sneak Attack 3d6
Death Attack 3d6
When he hits a flat-footed opponent, my total damage is weapon damage + 6d6.
The only place Sneak Attack and Death Attack don't stack is when considering whether or not you can take the Improved Sneak Attack epic feat. That feat requires 8d6 of Sneak Attack but your Death Attack doesn't count.
It's clearly a flaw in Bio's implementation of Death Attack. In standard PnP D&D, the assassin gets Sneak Attack dice just like the rogue but also has the potential for a Death Attack. The two are independent in PnP and cause no prerequisite problems with the epic feats.
What Death Attack does in NWN is give you a chance to paralyze your opponent for a LONG time. It only works, however, if your opponent is completely out of combat AND fails a fortitude save. So usually it's just your first attack from hiding that allows a Death Attack. The save DC is 10 + int bonus + assassin level. So my Rogue 5/Assassin 5 with 14 intelligence has a DC of 10 + 2 + 5 = 17. Nothing to write home about.
Again, this is another example of a poor implementation by Bioware. In PnP, the Death Attack is a DEATH attack; meaning that if your target failed his save, he died. For some unknown reason, Bioware changed it to paralysis but still gave other classes and feats (Monk, Palemaster, Arcane Archer, Devastating Critical) a real death attack. Go figure.
I think the best part of the assassin PrC, other than the RP potential, is the spells. Ghostly Visage, Darkness, and Improved Invisibility are great spells to have at your disposal.
Oh, and resist the urge to take a level of Shadowdancer. Yes, Hide in Plain Sight is one of the best abilities in the game but taking 1 level of SD screams MUNCHKIN! Edited by: Kalwraith at: 2/23/04 7:20 am
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
The big problem with Weaponmaster/rogues is that your using 2 skills that are powerful when they hit,but you rely on them exclusively.
Mobs that have immunity generally have immunity to both. Which means your damage output has gone to near Zero levels. You can still play through the campaign,or if your playing with others its not a big problem. Solo though,its going to be tough going in some areas.
ALso the Monk Is still not going to outpreform a heavy plate fighter type,in the long run. They dont have the damage reduction to stand up to a properly built fighter. Alot of that is in relation to PVP and specific class/item builds. i like monks,but they arent the gods everyone makes them out to be.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
Quote:The big problem with Weaponmaster/rogues is that your using 2 skills that are powerful when they hit,but you rely on them exclusively.
I don't agree with that. It could happen that way... but its not necessarily so.
You are still a high strength guy with a good BAB who can do max damage a bunch of times in a row. You are never going to suck at combat.
You also have access to traps and magic items as a rogue. Between a line of traps for bosses, a wand of fireballs and whirlwind for the weenies: critical hits and sneak attacks are just bonus.
Re: A few questions, (compatability and multiclassing)
TBH, the best combo I have seen (I also play it ) is an Elven or Assling 14 Ranger/25 Rogue/1 Shadowdancer (yes, I am a cheap bastage). You get 2 keen Kamas, and you are one mean motherfuvker. With this guy, all I do is Hide in Plain Sight (money), attack and kill one guy, retreat and hide, rinse and repeat.
) you are barred from the class forever (War 4, monk then on would work though). Another way NWN doesn't handle the system well 
Edited by: 
) is an Elven or Assling 14 Ranger/25 Rogue/1 Shadowdancer (yes, I am a cheap bastage). You get 2 keen Kamas, and you are one mean motherfuvker. With this guy, all I do is Hide in Plain Sight (money), attack and kill one guy, retreat and hide, rinse and repeat. 
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