Alternative parma suggestions
To avoid clogging up the main thread, how about we stick any alternative (and probably less well thought through) parma fixes here?
Here's my latest...
What if the parma were to be given a modicum of limited "intelligence" (it was Bonisagus' big breakthrough after all) so it could select which incoming spells to block to meet our requirements on tricky issues?
i.e. it only works to block magics that perceive, change, damage or control an aspect of a magus or are otherwise capable of directly affecting a magus to a degree sufficient to inflict/remove a penalty/wound/fatigue level?
This I (currently) believe passes the pink dot test, as well as falling elephants and poison to milk, while still blocking ignem spells, healing etc as per tradition, but then again, I could be wrong
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
Transformation of the useless staves MuHe 20
Creates a small thorn on all wooden weapons within a group - the thorns cause +1 damage - but mean the weapons can be deflected by Parma.
[B: 3, R: Voice+2, D: Diameter +1, R: Group +2
Enchantment of the slightly hotter flame MuIg 10
Raises the temperature of a fire slightly so it does +1 damage. However, this allows the fire (however big) to be resisted by Parma.
[B: 3, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Ind]
You could probably do this to people, animals, rocks etc too..
By the way, Mike - I really appreciate someone else having a crack at this! It's very difficult to come up with a viable mechanic unless other contribute positively!!
Edited by: Badger101 at: 31/1/06 17:27
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
Not wanting to clog up the board but in answer to your question. (Taken from Redcap FAQ)
Since magic resistance keeps out magical things, doesn't it keep out illusions?
That's a pretty astute question. The Fifth Edition rules did anticipate this detail. Under the description of the Form of Imaginem on p. 79, the text explains that Imaginem spells produce non-magical species that can't be magically resisted. So, any Imaginem spell looks the same to a person with magic resistance as it does to one without it. Incidentally, this rule also prevents the detection of visual illusions at Touch range by simply seeing (touching with your eyes) the species. You would need to touch the actual object that is the target of the Imaginem effect, or use a Voice- or Sight-range spell.
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
For the milk example, I would fall back on the "intelligent" aspect of this parma version. i.e. it's a spell that's going to do you harm so it gets resisted/whatever. It's a bit of a fudge I admit, but it's a fudge with an in game rational of sorts.
The fire example doesn't seem too damaging to this version, but as for the thorny weapon spells, fair enough, as there is no way you can not have these parma'd without allowing really big damage boosts through. It is however a fourth magnitude spell that lasts only a diameter. Would a spell on metal weapons be the same magnitude or higher?
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
Yeah - I think with a blocking parma or a suppressive parma - we get 'fudge' whatever we do.
Quote:as for the thorny weapon spells, fair enough, as there is no way you can not have these parma'd without allowing really big damage boosts through
Yeah - with the suppressive version - the staff gets through, but the +1 damage effect doesn't. Takes your choice I suppose - but being able to ward weapons for 20 rounds with a fairly low magnitude spell is pretty crap.
Edit: An alternative method of warding staves, swords, whatever
Conjure the touch of acid CrAq 10
Creates a corrosive liquid upon a group of objects which does +1 damage.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Group +2]
The +1 damage metal version - for a single sword - is basically edge of razor at range - so 4th mag.
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
No need for the fire, you broke my parma with the thorns! Feck, back to the drawing board then!
Hmmm, how about a suppressive version of my "intelligent" parma to dodge the ongoing sword issues? I'll ponder it on the train home...Edited by: KillAllTremere at: 31/1/06 17:51
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
Ok, how about this version? Third time lucky?
The parma functions as a magic suppressor, but the genius of Bonisagus was to imbue it with a degree of ‘intelligence’ that can assess the threat of magicks coming into contact with it. It can also differentiate between things that are wholly sustained by magic (i.e. a conjured wolf or a fireball) and those that are merely altered by magic (i.e. a pink sword or a shapechanged man). Broadly speaking it suppresses incoming magics that perceive, change, damage or control an aspect of a magus or are otherwise capable of directly affecting a magus to a degree sufficient to inflict/remove a penalty/wound/fatigue level.
This is how it works in practice...
What happens to a conjured wolf trying to bite a magus?The wolf’s teeth cannot bite the magus as the magic sustaining them is suppressed and they briefly vanish while ‘biting’. To the wolf it feels as if it is biting thin air, though of course its teeth do not click together.
Note that faeries, magical creatures, demons etc are not sustained by magic like conjured animals (they cannot be disenchanted with Wind of Mundane Silence <serf’s parma >) so are not parma’d.
What happens to a grog shapechanged into a wolf trying to bite a magus? The shapechange effect is suppressed, thus the grog’s teeth become human when they bite, though they still connect.
What happens to a magus shapechanged into a wolf biting a magus? Any spell effects on the attacking magus that would normally be parma’d are potentially protected from suppression by the attacker’s own parma.
As the parma was designed primarily as a defensive measure, the defender’s parma has the advantage here. To determine whether the attacker’s spells are suppressed, simply match the attacking parma x5 against the defending parma x5 + appropriate form (the parma was designed as a primarily defensive measure). If the scores are equal the defender’s parma resists. If a defending magus has a damaging spell effect on them (e.g. a halo of flames) then in order to burn the attacking magus it is treated as an attack for the parma vs parma contest.
What happens to a normal wolf with magical iron teeth biting a magus?The teeth to iron spell is suppressed but the normal bite still happens.
What happens to a grog muto’d to have animal claws attacking a magus?Claws suppressed, fingers hit.
What happens to a strength-enhanced grog punching a magus?Strength suppressed, punch hits as normal.
What happens to a strength-enhanced grog with a mundane sword?The sword hits, with the magical strength behind the blow.
What happens to a sword with pink dots on it?Dots suppressed, sword hits.
What happens to a sword with a flaming blade?Flames suppressed, sword hits.
What about a house fire with a MuIg on it to make it slightly hotter?The increase in heat is suppressed around the magus, but the remaining flames burn as normal.
What happens to a fireball spell?Fire suppressed around the magus.
What happens to a tree trunk turned into an arrow and shot at the magus?The parma recognises the potential for harm in the magic so it is not suppressed and the arrow hits as normal.
What happens to a poison turned into milk?The parma recognises the potential for harm so the magic is not suppressed and the liquid remains milk. What about the same spell with a diameter/conc duration?The spell effect must penetrate the parma to revert to its poisonous form.
Can a magus ride a magical horse/wield a magical sword?Yes, the parma recognises that there is no potential for harm so does suppress either of these. Edited by: KillAllTremere at: 1/2/06 12:44
Re: Alternative parma suggestions
This is what I might call a 'common sense' parma - which is fine, and what we've used in AM3 for years. However, the only problem arises when different refs take over for different sections of a game. What we don't want (as you perfectly illustrated in the other thread) is a parma that is open to debate half-way through a critical encounter.
Also, there are certain aspects of vulnerability that I'd like to maintain in order to make the atmosphere of the covenant as close as possible to the design brief (a survivalist covenant). These are absent from your model - and I'd like to try and keep at least some of them in.
I've had some thought on this - derived a lot on the ideas you've suggested here (cheers again!). Have a read and see what you think. (will post in a new thread)
Re: Alternative parma suggestionsAlso, there are certain aspects of vulnerability that I'd like to maintain in order to make the atmosphere of the covenant as close as possible to the design brief (a survivalist covenant). These are absent from your model - and I'd like to try and keep at least some of them in.
Hang on, are you saying I've fixed too many of the flaws?
As for it being a "common sense" parma, well yes, that's basically what it is. I think you have to have an 'intelligent' aspect to it to plug some of the loopholes. The aim of the above description was to try and achieve an in-game rationale for such fudging and also see if it could be made consistent. Note that to be consistent (and thus easy enough for different refs to apply) I think parma has to block conjured animals, even if normal examples of their kind, which I know is different from CB and I assume ST too?
Hang on, are you saying I've fixed too many of the flaws?
Not quite (though it's a bloody good attempt) - it merely relies too much on troupe decisions on what the 'intelligent' Parma would do and restricts a lot of things that I think need to get through Parma so that Magi have consistent challenges (not ones they can get through by putting +1 damage effects on items -- at some stage you would need to define what was natural in the first place to allow some damage to get through).
The problem - as perceive it - lies with Muto spells; which probably will require a compromise.
I've (finally) posted the kind of Parma I would like for the game. Have a look and see what you think.
Edited by: Badger101 at: 1/2/06 21:14
Feck, back to the drawing board then!
Edited by: 
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