Nage42 Registered User
Posts: 517
(4/4/04 12:16 am) Reply
Bodyguard -- it ain't fun
So question right? Isn't the idea of an Assassin that they can [try to] kill people, even in spite of a bodyguard being present?
I'd really like to see the Assassin's critical strikes that happen out of stealth break through the ML bodyguard ability.
Something like, PA breaks through it, just like it pops bubble, then the bodyguard can't be reset for 9 seconds or something.
We all know that if you're attacking a caster that's got group support they're prolly gonna get a heal/insta before you drop them, but at least having the chance should be there, instead of "sorry, you suck, go kill some tank before you swing at caster x"
Would it be unbalancing?
Personnally I've always been a fan of the idea of a Determination Assassin, where they can ignore CC for a few seconds just to be able to drop their target -- and then prolly die horribly -- but wasn't that the idea of the first Assassin? That they smoked Hash so that they could overcome pain/moral-delema/distraction to achieve their kill? I'm not proposing that we all smoke Hash (your mileage may vary), but I am propossing that that we should be able to sacrifice ourselves to be able to make one kill.
Steppin TheIronChef - Mid/BORS
Geflin Registered User
Posts: 150
(4/5/04 8:39 am) Reply
Re: Bodyguard -- it ain't fun
Bodyguard is an asinine ability that should have never made it into the game. What guard and intercept not enough? Even if you were grouped with healing support on your side you’d never do enough damage with our puny CS to drop a caster with a good healer on the job. In order to stay a live in group situations I use shade form (more for the fact it hides I’m a keen assassin) and either stealth near my healer or follow the assist train. Never and I mean never sneak back to where their healer and casters are alone you’ll die 80% of the time and get zero Realm Points. Hell its the main reason I wish Geflin was a Ranger so you could shoot casters in group situation without standing next to them yell “Quick stun me and kill me with two over powered nukes.”
Geflin
ripre79 Registered User
Posts: 31
(4/5/04 10:09 am) Reply
reply
"What guard and intercept not enough?"
Actually no, they're not - especially when facing an assist train. Bodyguard is currently the only thing keeping casters alive from the assist train. Ask any sorceror who can do no more than mez/dot and then run away...
I would love to see the game changed such that a single player can have no more than 2 attackers on him at once, to make the battles more epic, and less /assist.
I'd also like to see PBAE get something similar in that it cannot hurt more than N number of players, to stop all these PBAE groups that take out twice their numbers.
However, yes Assassins should be able to bypass Bodyguard (as well as those other BT-type MLAs) with their critical strikes. Just as BT was given a hole for CSs, Bodyguard also needs this same hole so that assassins can do their job in taking out casters. I doubt we'll see this until other changes are made first though, specifically doing away with the assist train.
Re: reply
I agree it will take time, but i am pretty optimistic in this regard, as bodyguard is such an obvious way to nullify what little effect assassins have on this game that it is hard to overlook.
If bodyguard is indeed a measure to stop/slow down assist trains, then simply making assassins ignore bodyguard completely would solve the issue, as there are no assist trains consisting of asssassins
Sooner or later, something will be done. In the meantime, i am hunting vampire bats because this bone dagger on my newbie Lineage2 would-be assassin is becoming obsolete
Re: reply
Hidden attacks clearly should bypass bodygourd, intercept, protect, and guard. I hate to irrationally compare daoc to pseudo reality, but you cant guard someone against what you cant see.
Perf and BS should dish out a pounding, but as far as the pajama merc bs goes; that template can rot.
Goldtooth
Llava Registered User
Posts: 462
(4/5/04 6:20 pm) Reply
Re: reply
Bodyguard needs to:
1) Intercept attacks rather than give the message that such and such can't be attacked.
2) Not prevent interrupts when attacks are intercepted.
3) Not protect from hidden attacks, included Perforate Artery, Backstab, and Backstab II. Creeping Death and the other follow ups, however, would be intercepted as normal- along with the effects.
4) Not intercept when the bodyguard is mezzed/stunned.
This allows casters to remain alive beyond the first few moments of the fight against the assist train, while not allowing them effective MoC against all melee, and not protecting them against what is supposed to be their natural predator. As it stands, Bodyguard is working as the Guard ability, which many people spec 50 in shield for, but far better.
It's akin to offering a master level ability that gives stealth that doesn't break when taking or dealing damage, but doesn't let you climb walls or safefall- and you don't have to be a class that has stealth to take it. Not exactly alike, but akin to.
Nage42 Registered User
Posts: 518
(4/5/04 9:02 pm) Reply
Re: reply
Well, as per usual, it all depends on matching expectations vs. deliverables.
My expectation is that [as an SB] my targets are:
Casters/Archers/other Assassins
Therefore, given that I am in reasonably good equipment, with a reasonable spec template, and playing reasonably well... then I should have a reasonable chance of dropping my target.
The dynamic is modified by my environment (where we need to acknowledge that buffbots are part of that environment).
Therefore, caveat to previous is that buffed vs. buffed, and unbuffed vs. unbuffed are equivalent; everything brakes down in an unbuffed vs. buffed scenario -- targets cannot expect to survive unbuffed vs. a buffed attacker (not always true), and an unbuffed attacker should expect great hardships vs. buffed targets (this is true now).
I maintain that if I am buffed and I am attacking a buffed target then, provided I land my Critical opener, I should prevail vs. my intended target list. Only extreme and very quick prevention by group surrounding support members should prevent this (cite: very large insta-heal, slam [subject to melee miss], or target IP). I maintain that during my Perf chain I should both have a strong melee to-hit my target and a reasonable strong melee defence to aid me from being distracted from my one primary target (target can be healed, no way I can deter that other than disease poison [which should also affect spread heals!]).
As it stands now, I cannot expect very much success in attacking a target and being able to drop them before a surrounding group completely nullifies me -- casted CC, slow-reatction Slam/Snare, spread heals. I fully expect to die horribly in very short order; however, I should be able to drop that one target.
I cannot expect success because of the following reasons, in order of importance/frequency-faced (some are class-specific):
Old:
SB Left Axe mechanics means I have a degraded main-hand opener (~70-80% main-hand), although damage-over-time is equalized, our class is interested in damage-right-now
Every target out on the field has maximized Hits/Con/Resists.
SB frontloading with 2H weapon is too slow with follow-up swing.
Hib targets have extremely diverse heals
Alb targets tend to have extremely high absorb/ablative
New:
Master Level skills completely nullify my ability to make my one contribution to Realm vs. Realm combat (cite Bodyguard/Grapple)
Like I keep saying, I don't expect to get away after I make my Kamikaze attack (this is the game dynamic that Mythic has forced on me), but I do expect to be able to drop that one target.
MinionX Registered User
Posts: 347
(4/6/04 12:54 am) Reply
hmmmm
Why would anyone be dumb enuff to attack a caster with a melee standing right next to him
Bodyguard shouldn't be a problem here
unless you completely miss the point of being sneaky
Geflin Registered User
Posts: 151
(4/6/04 5:53 am) Reply
Re: hmmmm
Why would you attack a caster with a tank in the area? Imagine you in a group, for many of us this is indeed hard to imagine, and you come across a group from an opposing realm. What do you do? Here are your options as I see them (some of these options suck):
Stealth, sneak through the lines and attack casters/healers (this gets you dead more times than not or a least it gets me dead). This would seem the primary goal of an ASSASSIN but is not the best option for the reason stated by other people in previous posts.
Join the assist train, stay small, and if you’re lucky some over the top caster wont two shot you.
Stay back guard you casters/healer: If a tank comes flying in to kill a caster in your group I garrote the hell out of them let the caster run and blow the crap out of the bad guy.
I’ve had greater success with the last two then the first one. People seem to get all upset if you attack their healers.
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