Registered User
Posts: 2464
(2/19/04 6:33 am) Reply
Holy @#%$
Just got a closer look at my Epic Level Handbook that I finally got around to getting...
21st level players can become demiliches. It's all right there in black and white.
Sure, it's not easy, as you have to (a) already be a lich, and (b) burn a retarded amount of experience and gold on creating your soul gems, but it can be done, and I can't conceive of any situation where a player wouldn't want to take advantage of it as soon as possible, considering the massive amounts of bonuses you receive and the total lack of any drawbacks.
The total magic immunity and at-will Spell-like-ability to cast Harm (as well as about 15 other spells) was particularly brutal i thought, as was the 300-foot range soul devour...
-- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear "Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Holy @#%$
Well, there is the *slight* drawback of being DEAD. Being dead isn't all that fun.
You like a good steak? Well...you'll never taste one again. Sex? Not gonna happen! Smelling the sea breeze? No go.
So, sure, you have power coming out of the holes that used to lead to your ears, but frankly, if you abuse that power, someone will find some way to take you down.
Registered User
Posts: 2471
(2/21/04 10:55 am) Reply
Re: Holy @#%$
honestly i can't figure out how you WOULD kill a demilich. They're immune to like freaking everything.
immune to all magic except holy smite, dispel evil (3d6, oh no) and shatter... (which does half damage)
damage reduction of 30/vorpal, and all vorpal weapons do half damage...
Harm as an at-will spell like ability, so if you ever do take damage, you can CH yourself on your next action....
So unless the people attacking you are doing 30+ damage every hit with no criticals while consistently hitting your AC of 50+ (so there goes the power attack option), or have vorpal weapons, you can't even really take damage at all. And that's assuming you're just sitting there and letting them attack you, as opposed to sucking out the souls of the ones with the crappy fort saves, summoning greater planar allies at will, or actually god forbid, casting spells. And even if the impossible does happen and you DO lose the fight, they have to destroy all your soul gems AND your phylactery or you come right back in 1d10 days.
The only thing that i forsee killing a demilich would be a huge raid of casters that all cast dispel evil at the same time.
...
Epic level fighter (with a vorpal weapon) with cleric / wizard support would be able to tear apart a demi-lich fairly easilly. Clerics have spells that protect against negative energy, and a slew of other buffs. Have the wizard stand-by to counter any dispels the demi-lich tries to cast. Cleric would also be able to do the holy smites and dispel evils.
Of course, that's assuming it's just a toe-to-toe battle on a flat open plain with a 10 foot ceiling.
Re: ...
I don't think a vorpal weapon would work on the Demilich... considering the Demilich is made of... a head.
You can get some pretty freaky stuff out of epic spells tho, Epic spell to shatter Magic Immunity (I call it Breakwall), followed by maybe an area of effect Negative Plane Protection effect centered on the Lich (Hopefully the adventurers are wearing some sort of soul-anchor thingie), then have at it...
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Posts: 2474
(2/24/04 11:10 am) Reply
Re: ...
Quote:Or an epic spell that breaks through all resistances with an effect of Resurrection...
Demilich is immune to this spell, by virtue of automatically being immune to all spells except Holy Smite, Shatter, and Dispel Evil. Total magic immunity doesn't mean, 'immunity to all currently existing spells' it means just that; total magic immunity.
Quote:You can get some pretty freaky stuff out of epic spells tho, Epic spell to shatter Magic Immunity (I call it Breakwall)
See above. You really couldn't remove the demilich's immunity to magic with a spell, because the demilich would be immune to that spell by default. That'd be like having a sword that makes anything it hits solid, then attacking a creature in gaseous form with that sword - the sword's effect is irrelevant because you can't hit it.
Quote:I don't think a vorpal weapon would work on the Demilich... considering the Demilich is made of... a head.
The demilich is immune to the vorpal effect, yes, but the vorpal effect negates the demilich's damage reduction. It's like how demons have damage reduction that gets negated by silver.
Quote:Clerics have spells that protect against negative energy, and a slew of other buffs. Have the wizard stand-by to counter any dispels the demi-lich tries to cast.
Death Ward doesn't protect you against a demilich's soul steal ability, it just gives you a +5 on your save. Wizards can't counterspell a spell-like ability, and demiliches have tons of those. Moreover, the demilich CAN counter the cleric's dispels and holy smites. Most of all, if that vorpal-wielding warrior can't kill the demilich in one round, he'll be facing a full-health demilich every round - and since undead are immune to crits and demilich minimum AC is in the 50s, power attack and pray isn't an option.
Re: ...
Well, to answer the original problem (players becoming demi-liches), the easiest answer is not to allow it to happen. Undead in most campaigns are NPCs. This may be an appropriate way to retire a character (or an alternative to minor dietyhood), but it is not meant to be used for normal gaming IMO.
As to fighting a Demi-lich under the new rules... It may not be a full health Demi-Lich. Harm and Heal were changed in 3.5 just because of reasons like this (a potentially 5th level spell (if domain) breaking an encounter). They now heal or harm for a maximum of 150 damage. If you want to get technical, it is actually immune to harm. It does not have spell resistance so I do not see it being able to voluntarily drop the immunity. Yes, I know in the description they mention it healing itself, but still. Unless some eratta was issued, they dropped the ball IMO for the harm healing each round.
Also the minimum AC for a (poorly equipped) demilich would be 40, +4 size, +5 natural armor, +21 insight, 10 base AC. For an Epic Fighter type, that is quite easy to hit. Of course, finding the vorpal weapon is not as easy, but Epic characters have access to a larger variety of gear. Don't forget a monk with Vorpal Strike Epic feat, that could get ugly quickly.
One Shatter Magic user ( quickened for two, maximized or empowered for extra oomph, enhance it while you are at it to double the maximum cap on damage). One holy smite cleric (see above for two and juicing the spell). A vorpal wielding fighter type. A Vorpal Strike Monk. These should be able to handle a demilich, it all depends on the tactics. As undead, they have pretty poor average hp due to no constitution modifier.
An Epic Cleric casting an Enhanced, maximized Holy might does 40 damage even if the Demilich makes a save (which they probably will). Hasted the Cleric can pop two of those off. Yes, that makes it into a level 12 spell, but even if you remove Enhanced, that is still 20 damage guaranteed, and the cleric can get at least two of those off.
If both sides are prepared (and they should be), it could get quite ugly, but the PCs should be able to prevail without undue trouble if the CR is appropriate for them.
Just pointing out yes they are mean, but hardly unbeatable
Dungeon magazine on Epic Characters has a feat for assassins:
Destructive attack: Death attack can now work on plants, undead, and constructs.
I don't give a >cough< if its "Total Magic Immunity" there WILL be a way to get through it... never mind the fact that the spell to breakthrough immunity is approximately 200 spellcraft DC to cast or more... There's a whole dang lot you can do with them epic spell seeds (They kind of encourage you to Rules-Lawyer in that section)
Registered User
Posts: 2476
(2/25/04 6:37 am) Reply
Re: ...
Quote:Epic versions of the couple of spells that do work on it should work by all rites.
now THAT's clearheaded thinking. Very true.
Shadowcross - why not? If the rules allow for it, why would you want to artificially restrict your players?
-- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear "Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein
Quote:Shadowcross - why not? If the rules allow for it, why would you want to artificially restrict your players?
Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should do it.
GMs are beyond rules - I don't want munchkin-playstyle, and becoming a lich qualifies in my eyes.
Unless I am running a purely evil campaign and a player has REALLY REALLY good reasons and explanation how he does it, I won't allow it.
It's the same as having Shadowrun Chars with essence below zero.. they become NPCs - as would D&D chars that become liches - in my campaigns.
Re: ...
Although... there is ONE way ta do it... and still be good-ish. Only thing is I think it can only be done in Forgotten Realms.
Monsters of Faerun, "Good Lich" section.
Archliches and Baelnorns are the examples they give. Archliches are spellcasters that take the path of immortality in order to see the pursuit of some lofty goal to its end.
Capable of all normal lich abilities, along with being able to turn undead as good clerics, animate dead, and walk on water...
Baelnorns are elves so devoted to the protection of their kind (Or their families, for the more homegrown ones) that they've effectively decided to protect them... for eternity. No aura of fear from these critters... no phylactery either.
There's a few other abilities they can pull, but that's about it. If you actually try to make one of these kind of liches, and further turn one into a demilich, you might want to modify some of the demilich abilities to better suit some critter that isn't out to eat your soul for breakfast.
Registered User
Posts: 4511
(2/26/04 7:33 am) Reply
Re: ...
Haha, I remember that section on good liches. Said something like you had to be a very high level wizard, cleric or bard! Bard? Wtf! They can bearly cast magic as it is! How do they become liches??
Still, good example of non-evil liches. But can you take it to the next step and become a non-evil demilich? Hmm. That would have to be some lofty goal. Like the overthrow of some evil diety.
Re: ...
Gives ya a lovely image of an undead force of misery and destruction prancing around in the Austrian highlands singing "The hills are alive, with the sound of music... but I'm not!"
Registered User
Posts: 2478
(2/26/04 2:42 pm) Reply
Re: ...
page 240 of my Player's Handbook specifically states that spell-like abilities cannot be used as a counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled themselves.
Re: ...
3.5 doesn't seem to clarify from what I have found in the PHB and DMG either. PHB doesn't specifically address spell like abilities, and the DMG (pg 289) states specifically that Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled or counterspelled, but makes no distinction for spell like abilities.
I would have to agree that spell like abilities are not counterable. If they were, they would be normal spells, not spell like abilities. Just because it looks like a fireball, smells like a fireball, and does damage like a fireball, doesn't mean it is a fireball. Anyone feel like scouring the WotC site for eratta?
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