Registered User
Posts: 322
(3/26/04 7:53 am) Reply
New RAs : Nightshades
[Note: In order to foster communication and organization within our Safehouse community I am going to take the initiative to divide up some threads. In your class area discuss: "New class specific" issues, issues associated with the loss or generalization of your previous abilities and how the other realm's classes and stealthers may affect you - positively or negatively. Feel free to post in other's threads- no one is excluded from discussions.]
Just trying to help us all out,
Alk
Geflin Registered User
Posts: 147
(3/26/04 7:57 am) Reply
Re: New RAs : Nightshades
Okay some people seem to be having a tough time grasping why the new Nightshade ability is alarmingly bad and why we have no faith in TESTING.
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So little faith my friends...Please take the time to test the hell outta all this before screaming and treathening to cancel. Changes of this scale will totally alter the current melee dynamics, let's see how it turn out before bashing Mythics.- Grinless
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Testing means nothing. I know a certain skill in the CS line that has seen tons of testing and to this day remains unchanged despite the vast about of data logs. The current imbalances in the game are a result of Mythic’s testing skills what makes you think this new batch of skills is going to be any different. These are the same people who brought you the 2.5 spec points to Infiltrators and called it fair and balanced. Hell ToA was tested and look how great it was. The best indicator of future performance is, you guessed it, past performance.
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How is this ability not good? U get to "instantly" cancel the affects of SB and INF Dots and ENERVATING! That is about at least 4-500 damage per fight on average. Not to mention, if the fight still isn't going your way...u just up and "vanish" (pun intended) LOL! If I am reading this ability wrong someone pls correct me, otherwise i think nightshades just got the leg up on the competition.
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Now Remedy why is it bad and why don’t people like it compared to the other skills?
One – Remedy is only useful against poison users which consists of the two other assassin classes. Shadow Strike and Assassinate do not have this limitation.
Two – Purge II has the same effect and anyone can take this now usable every 5 minutes so basically all the time. On a side note this makes the Envenom skill nearly useless as everyone will purge it and you’ll lose time and valuable attacks constantly switching weapons.
Three – Timing. When you use this skill most likely it’s after a fight has been initiated with another stealther, right? So what does that mean? It means you’ve already lost a tic on the dot and the enervating poison has already landed. The game mechanics, as I understand them, work like this: Enervating lands and the Nightshades con goes down. Then the Nightshade uses remedy and his con returns to normal but the hit points lost don’t automatically return. It’s like removing and item that gives you con and the putting it right back on basically the damage is done.
Four – Cost. The cost of the skills is 10% of your hit points the one thing a Nightshade can’t afford to lose. For me that’s 185 hit points lost plus how ever many tics of the dot I take before I get the skill off.
I’m not sure how people think this give an advantage to the Nightshade in a fight. I lose 185+ hit points and now have to fight an infiltrator who’s more powerful than I am with no AP to help me survive. Yeah sounds like a recipe for Nightshades winning to me.
Look at all the skills as a whole and you can see there are several classes getting the shaft. For example Bards special ability lets them change shape so people can’t tell they are a bard but Monstrels get a 1000 unit AoE instant mez; sounds like a fair trade right (sarcasm)? With so many classes complaining about this skills stealthers can expect to get the same level of planning and consideration we’ve received in the past, none.
Another problem is Monstrels with Alluring Melodies, how the hell do we compete with that? The problem is they are going to have to give the skill to minstrels for the sake of balance for the realm of Albion which means stealth balance is gone, done albs win. Even if they changed everything else this is the nail in the coffin for which there is no defense. Every 10 minutes a 30sec 400 a tic heal? Hell one Infl and minstrel will be able to kill 5 shades easy.
Geflin
LGL Registered User
Posts: 36
(3/26/04 9:04 am) Reply
Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
Geflin, everything you just said is spot on mate... Each time I read the proposed RA's I just wanna cry. Are the people at Mythic, and our NS TL, so stupid that can't see what they are doing? Can they not see how overpowered Albion has been and continues to be, now 10 fold? I have to tell you all... City of Heroes is coming out... I'll be cancelling my shade at that point... right after that WoW will be out... so ... bye bye Mythic... I've had it with your stupidity and your outright BS time and time again... Damn it... let the Alb stealth zerg dominate every playing field... I don't give a damn anymore...
Realm/class balance... ROFLMAO you have got to be kidding?
Onyyx Bloodbane
51 Nightshade
Guinevere/Rhaidan
Setar Registered User
Posts: 5
(3/26/04 9:38 am) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
Don't take it out on the TLs. Here's a quote from the Mid-RvR-Teamlead:
Quote:
Just FYI, I guarantee there is almost nothing you guys can say about not liking a certain ability that I and other TL's haven't already said multiple times over the last six months while this has been designed.
Neither the Healer TL nor I have anything but negative feelings towards the healer's Unique RA, so you're wasting your time complaining about it on VN (i.e. to us). Send in Feedback via the Herald so it goes directly to Mythic, please.
Lakeb Registered User
Posts: 411
(3/26/04 9:59 am) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember that this is the beginning of a testing process and not the end.
regarding AP, 75% of the benefit we receive from speccing for AP is that we have Aug Con 3... which is still there. I have felt for a while that AP just pushed us farther into the "Ghetto tank" classification and away from our true purpose... assassination.
With regard to the unique abilities, I would argue that immunity from poison is the best. Assassinate seems like TS/Stealth Lore bait. Shadowstrike would require the shadowblade to both avoid Stealth Lore and be able to see me while stealthed to make it work... Shadowstrike is better than Assassinate but it isn't an I Win button. If an SB Shadowstrikes me, I'm just going to hit stealth lore, then hit vanish and bail.
Viper is now available to all assassins so poison will become a bigger part of our game than ever, however, we all know that most infs and SBs have not been speccing high in poison. We do, so it helps us the most. Further, we alone will have the ability to be immune to poisons... I would much rather take a 10% hit to HP than have my str/con reduced by 65+.
Our biggest problem in the new system will be in open war. AP was key to defending against multiple attackers. I predict that vanish will become a required RA for Nightshades because you will need to kill your one target and then bail. The good news is that we can now attack someone in the ground floor of a keep. It used to be it was a suicide run to do that.
My greatest concern is that I will no longer have dodger which was my bread and butter. All my kills come from DB, Hamstring, Hamstring, leaper... etc. I will be severly gimped if I can't keep my evade rate at 50% and this will show very quickly in testing.
One thing that a lot of the panic button peeps are assuming is that the style review is not going to be a part of this equation. Imagine PA doing 1000 damage. Now, does your future seem so bleak? It could happen because now PA is not so easy to pull off, it used to be that my main problem in getting PA off was lag, now it is lag+the mirriad of Stealth Lore items and TS. I think I am within my bounds to demand a commisurate bump in damage.
Bottom line, get in on the testing. Don't be one of those chumps that complained about something they hadn't even tried. I realize some of the testing is going to be closed, but eventually it will be on Pendragon and you owe it to yourself to put the changes through their paces and not just shout from the shadows.
Aeolion Registered User
Posts: 160
(3/26/04 10:43 am) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
My pa does 1000 damage, if I got the nightshade ablility, it would still suck. Stripping the str/con doesnt give you your hps back, so you take 150ish damage to prevent what 200ish from lifebane (since the first tick or two have landed already)
Shadowstrike is nice for a cb though =). I oneshot a lot of targets anyways, shadowstrike/vanish 4tehwin.
Would rather have assasinate. 1500 perfs that... well it would probably get shadowblades the nerfstick. =)
Tanya TheSane <the feels the nightshades pain shadowblade>
Registered User
Posts: 327
(3/26/04 1:12 pm) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
If they implement the NS "drink poison" thing then they need to make it to where you can do it while stealthed. One of the things I hate MOST about the ML abilities is that everything you use unstealths you! Also, it needs to be instant, no graphic really needed..... last thing NS's need is a 5 second delay for it to take effect.
Olmoss Registered User
Posts: 49
(3/26/04 2:28 pm) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
Let me also point out that they IGNORED nightshades as the 'magical' assassins. Think about what might have been if they worked on that ! ..maybe gave us a real DD with a snare component ? Look at some of these they handed out for ideas.
Insta-cast PBAE Attack that causes the enemy to have a 25% chance to fumble melee/bow attacks for the next 15 seconds.
Insta-PBEA attack that drains 250 points from all nearby enemies and returns 75% to the reaver.
PBAE attack that does moderate damage and makes all melee targets in 350 radius unable to attack for 6 seconds.
Insta-cast spell that is a PBAE 50% snare lasting 20 seconds. (hunters
anyway, you get the idea.. and Hib in general got most of the lest attractive RA's.. check Ments and Bards for example.
Patrick
50th Bard for Rising Phoenix
Moth, 50th Nightshade
Moonflower Bllue,50th Warden
Meliwen, 50th Mana Ment
Llava Registered User
Posts: 434
(3/26/04 2:59 pm) Reply
Re: Geflin... you are sooo right... /sheds a tear
<ahem>
Last I heard, and this was from the Nightshade TL, Remedy needs to be used /before/ the poison to take effect.
So you get jumped and poisoned, you just remedy to fix it? Think again.
You have to remedy before getting poisoned.
Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
/shrug. Pretty useless. I already cancelled, so I can't say I'm cancelling... if I was still enjoying the game I wouldn't cancel over this. If I was borderline, which most players are, I certainly would. I'm not precognitive, so I wouldn't be able to say "I better remedy now, an assassin is going to attack me within the next 60 seconds!"
Hell. Better to just buy the lowest form of Purge for 5 points. Voila, debuff and poison gone without 10% loss of health.
jamxl Registered User
Posts: 5
(3/27/04 8:03 am) Reply
Lame
Let's not forget, not only is there no AP, there is no Wild Arcana and no Dodger. The only thing that remains is Viper and everyone has it. I fail to see how even improving Remedy is going to come close to filling those voids.
I figure my new RA spec will be high in Vanish, MoP and Toughness/Aug Con. I figure I'll hit as hard as I can and Vanish. No since in actually meleeing anymore.
Llava Registered User
Posts: 435
(3/27/04 1:05 pm) Reply
Re: Lame
If you're going to use a hit and run, you'll want Viper.
Passive 2x damage on your poisons /is/ pretty nice.
Too bad it doesn't work with all DoTs like it used to though. But I guess that'd be pretty overpowering.
EDIT
Looks like I was wrong about the Remedy thing, from Meg-
"Its all posions. DoT and debuff. It should act like purge if you already have poisons/casted DoTs on you. However, at that point you've already suffered 1-2 tics of the DoT, and you have to pay another 10% (though it is less than if you didn't Remedy)."
So you don't have to be precognitive. You just have to be willing to pay 10% of your health to Purge.
Edited by: Llava at: 3/27/04 1:19 pm
Registered User
Posts: 144
(3/29/04 5:49 am) Reply
Re: Lame
So.... everyone gets access to Purge, which is on a 15min or 5min timer, does the same thing, but doesn't cost 10% damage.
Although, arguably, the 5 second delay on purge would mean another tic or two -- which is about equal to 10% damage -- but purge would have more utility as well.
Edited by: Ayra Underfoot at: 3/29/04 6:19 am
Lakeb Registered User
Posts: 415
(3/29/04 6:50 am) Reply
purge
I personally feel that purge is overpowered.
It deletes all negative effects, and that is just wrong... there needs to be multiple Purge with different effects... like purge poison, purge mezz, etc. They have made it far to difficult for anyone except strait melee toons.
As it is now, they might as well merge IP with purge and call it "Redo."
IMO, it should be back on the old timer and be split into at least 2 differnt effects.
Another possibility is to make purge effect any negative effect, but only one. in other words, you hit purge and the right shift-click on one of the debuffs/poisons that are currently on you.
Llava Registered User
Posts: 450
(4/2/04 12:47 am) Reply
Re: purge
Caught a nice little soundbyte from the Infiltrator teamlead.
Not that it means the cosmos are on our side or anything, just made me smirk.
Regarding the new Infiltrator RA- "at least it isn't the NS RA."
entreriii Registered User
Posts: 230
(4/5/04 1:46 pm) Reply
hello
We all have a 5 min purge now. ( or you should have it)
That basically means we will be wasting purge on every fight so the remedy thing is useless
entreriii Registered User
Posts: 231
(4/5/04 1:48 pm) Reply
hello
Just wait till all the infiltrators and shadowblades respec completely out of envenom because of this. Then how usefull is our RA.
Think about it if infiltrators had this I would take env out and just raise my cd higher .
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