Lakeb Registered User
Posts: 417
(3/29/04 2:17 pm) Reply
New Vanish RA
I just wanted a seperate thread for this one because I feel like it will really change the assassin class a LOT.
***Teleports the assassin out of combat to a random location. The distance teleported is based on the listed values. When teleported the assassin is automatically put into stealth mode and has all effects that would break stealth automatically purged. A stealther cannot attack for 30 seconds after using this ability.
Range: 500, 1000, 2000***
I would like to see a couple of issues taken into consideration in the implementation of Vanish:
The distance of Stealth lore. Shades of Mist gives you 35 levels relative to the other player... what is the distance assuming 50 stealth?
The range of a precience node.
The range of True sight.
The maximum distance within the new keep models.
My first thought is that 500 units is absolutely worthless. It is just not far enough away. I realize your enemy needs a chance to find you but I want him to have to run around and look for me, not just hit F8 and then /face.
My second thought is that if done properly, vanish will finally let me sneak over the wall of a keep and kill people in the courtyard... and live to tell about it. However, this will require that I can get outside of the keep when I vanish. If it becomes common knowledge that most that vanish are still inside the keep somewhere, then they will be found almost instantly. I don't expect the lowest level of vanish to get me outside of the keep, but it seems reasonable that the second level would.
I would like to see the distances increased for Vanish at every level. I would recommend making level 1 1000 units. (ask any animist, it just isn't that far away.) The second level should be 1500. (it will surely place you outside of the walls of a keep.) and the last level will put you at 2500 which surely removes you completely from the frey, as it should considering you spent all the points from 3RR for it.
Furthermore, those who spec high in it should still be able to cast the lower levels, the way buffs or poisons work. If I specced for Vanish 3... I wouldn't always want to go that far away. Either have blue, yellow and red vanish, or have Lesser and Greater versions.
I think many have not realized how important this ability will be to assassin classes. It will allow us to get kills which before would lead to /release. I have suicided on a group many many times just to get a single kill. If I get vanish, I don't have to wait for solo targets... a dying breed anyway.
Second, I can see someone try to shadowstrike me and I see the poison fly up and the SB appear before me with the yellow swath across my neck and 3/4 of my life gone... instead of just typing /release and waiting for the garrotte I just hit vanish and live to fight another day. I think that once this goes in, stealther wars will change a lot... you have to get the opponent to burn vanish before you can expect to kill him.
Likewise, if I see a shadowblade and try to shout him to reveal his location to my group, he can just hit vanish and escape.
Quote:My second thought is that if done properly, vanish will finally let me sneak over the wall of a keep and kill people in the courtyard... and live to tell about it. However, this will require that I can get outside of the keep when I vanish. If it becomes common knowledge that most that vanish are still inside the keep somewhere, then they will be found almost instantly. I don't expect the lowest level of vanish to get me outside of the keep, but it seems reasonable that the second level would.
I'm quite sure that Mythic will enforce LoS w/this RA, completely killing this idea.
However, I love the idea, and think that if an "Assassin" is going to be able to "Assassinate" (not referring to the RA) in keep situations w/PN's, perma TS, etc. etc. that they will have to allow it...or the skill would be as useless (in keep situations) as climbing a wall in a defended keep is now imo.
Auroric Registered User
Posts: 30
(3/29/04 4:04 pm) Reply
re
Vanish has a cheap purge on it? Does it purge the pet thats gonna chase you and pop your stealth anyhow? Unless I'm missing something here this really seems like another way cool concept turned into a POS by its lack of real function
Auroric NS/Igraine
Lakeb Registered User
Posts: 418
(3/30/04 9:52 am) Reply
Vanish
The trick will be, can Mythic allow you to pass through some walls and not others. I wouldn't want to be in DF and vanish only to end up inside of the wall of the dungeon.
I can't imagine Mythic requiring line of sight for vanish, they have said that they are trying to make taking and holding keeps more interesting and if we can't escape then we just won't participate.
I believe that all targets are lost when you vanish, including pet target.
Llava Registered User
Posts: 445
(3/30/04 2:50 pm) Reply
Re: Vanish
I doubt the pet loses the target.
I'd be more likely to believe that they will require you to have LOS to a location before teleporting to it, otherwise it'll send you elsewhere. That's a cheap and easy way to prevent players ending up inside walls, as you described. Certainly sounds like the way Mythic would take.
ripre Registered User
Posts: 68
(3/30/04 5:01 pm) Reply
Re: Vanish
I'm very excited for this ability! I welcome a tool for facilitating escapes - it's well deserved now that our dmg output has been reduced over the years
I would love to see the distance increased, however if it couldn't be, then it might be nice if instead of a random point to vanish to, you simply vanished your level's distance in the direction you are facing.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that LOS rules will be followed. It would kill two birds with one stone for Mythic this way: 1) prevents infs from teleporting over walls and 2) takes care of the "what if I teleport behind a zone wall such as in DF?"
I would not expect Vanish to be a cheap man's purge. Sure this may be how it goes into the game when things go live, but I think we'll see too many people complaining that "I stunned the infiltrator and he vanished, moved in front of my face and PA'd me". That's gonna piss people off lots.
PsychoToad Registered User
Posts: 31
(3/31/04 6:49 am) Reply
Re: Vanish
I am guessing that in order to use Vanish, you will not be able to be mezzed or stunned when doing so. The only things that the RA states it will remove are things that would normally bring you out of stealth. So to me, that means dots or bleeds, not anything like a mezz, stun, or debuff. So no, it won't be like a cheap purge since it will only get rid of certain effects. And the fact that you can't attack again for 30 seconds will do something to prevent someone from coming back imediately and trying to perf.
ripre79 Registered User
Posts: 26
(3/31/04 7:18 am) Reply
Re: Vanish
Oh yes, I forgot about that detail that you cannot attack 30 seconds later - thanks
Ripre Dhampir - 50 Infiltrator
Lakeb Registered User
Posts: 419
(3/31/04 11:34 am) Reply
vanish
Best I can tell, the only thing it removes is DOT. Debuffs will still be active. Don't know about mezz and stun... could be that you teleport while stunned and remain stunned/mezzed in a new location.
Caowyth Registered User
Posts: 4379
(3/31/04 11:45 am) Reply
Re: vanish
It should look at every location at 1000 range and transport you into an open one.
Also, I'd vote that in addition to it's effect it dumps stealth lore on you for the duration of the 30 seconds no attack time.
Llava Registered User
Posts: 447
(3/31/04 1:19 pm) Reply
Re: vanish
I would doubt that you can even use it while mezzed/stunned, so whether it removes the effect or not would be moot.
Nage42 Registered User
Posts: 514
(4/1/04 12:59 am) Reply
Re: vanish
Mythic: We've removed the ability to one-shot-stay-stealthed because it promotes gray-ganking.
Playerbase: Ummm, hello?!! What are grays doing in an RvR zone in the first place? Frontiers are dangerous, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Mythic: Ok, ok, all of our dev mana-chanters are tired of having their PL sessions interrupted in DF, so you loose it. Nya!
Playerbase: Err... whatever.
Mythic: We've created some very powerful artifacts that will benifit Assassins considerably.
Playerbase: Ummm, all the encounters are really tough (1 FG+), and leveling the arti in most cases in on very hard mobs... we have trouble getting a group at all in the first instance, and it's damn unlikely that they'll fob around for literally DAYS to lvl our arti for us.
Mythic: Huh? You don't get groups? What are you talking about? Lalalalala, we can't hear you... lalalala.
OMG, these artis are too strong, now that you've got RSI from leveling them, we're gonna nerf them a few times, just so you can never really be sure they'll land and thus invalidate you're entire SC setup a few times so you'll get back to PvE farming (where we'd like everyone to live for months).
Playerbase: Errrr.... well @#%$, nice goal-post shift. So I need to spend 4/5ths of my time in PvE to be RvR competative... oh yeah.
Mythic: Ok, we're giving Infs the ability to hang around choke points and promote even bigger stealth cluster-@#%$ at doors. We're giving SBs the ability to perf at range. And we're giving them all access to double their Poison dmg and then disappear instantly.
Playerbase: Errr... ok, that's great, I mean, it's cool and all, but how will this promote me to get a group, prevent me from using this ganking grays, and not get us overnerfed in the very near future?!? I mean we understand that casters expect to be able to kill 20+ people in a few seconds, but God forbid we kill one of them... ever.
It's as if they are throwing out boobie-trapped gifts in the hopes that it will truely swing public oppinion to have the final nail put in the coffin for Assassins.
/boggle.
Listening to Mythic announcements is like dealing with a schizophrenic Hydra... do the heads even _talk_ to each other? They don't even seem to be in the same galaxy!
My Dorf in Lineage II is pretty fun so far... and just like everyone else and their younger brother, I can spend longer enjoying my Female Dark-Elf mage's discosuit getup than I can stand in Atlantis anymore.
Final call for Alchohol Mythic.
edit - don't cheat the filter please -LTEdited by: Llabak Tharr at: 4/1/04 4:22 am
Re: vanish
The gray ganking comment was from waaaaay back, and it was a legitimate issue at the time. It was before DF when a majority of XP was done out in the frontiers and one stealther could PA an entire group (green and blues cons as well in the case of casters) without even coming out of stealth.
They wouldn't say artifacts were overpowered for stealthers if people were not getting groups to level up said artifact. I have no problem getting groups, and I see shades and rangers every day in my pickup groups as well. Seriously, I have a verdant animist that doesn't have problems getting groups. Why? Because I have friends and a guild that treat each other with respect and will help out even the odd-spec toons we sometimes create.
For the most part, I found your rant to be inaccurate. The only part I agree with is the new unique RAs, but only because they didn't share any of the PA love with shades.
Re: vanish
something I just thought of with DF mentioned and talking about the new ra's.....what if vanish and shadowstrike allow the person to get onto the DF steps? If mythic doesn't impliment something to prevent it, or at least update the rules about them there may be alot of rules slapping people around and getting some in trouble that don't deserve it (mostly in the case of vanish, as it's random)
On that note, I'm actually scared how vanish may act in DF. What if you used it and were teleported down into a swarm of drinkers, cambions, or shredders?
sentania Registered User
Posts: 126
(4/1/04 11:05 am) Reply
Re: vanish
Might have to be a risk you have to take.
Really that could happen anywheres though, although in most hotspots in the frontiers there isn't any agro.
Re: vanish
"The gray ganking comment was from waaaaay back, and it was a legitimate issue at the time. It was before DF when a majority of XP was done out in the frontiers and one stealther could PA an entire group (green and blues cons as well in the case of casters) without even coming out of stealth.
"
Ayra you're incorrect on this the exact patch notes says that Shadowblades were sneaking to the other side of DFs and ganking grays (recalling from memory).
Yes it was of course around before then but no a SB could not gank a full group of greens. Trust me I was one of the SBs out there in the gorge at the rats and after you pa you were still in combat mode, so no target cloest, you had to reset your wep, pick another target and then wait 4+ secs (needed 2 hander) cuz you didn't have any qui from items or buffs in those days so to gank a full group was well impossiable pretty much. The best you could hope for was a caster sitting when the rest of the group pulled and you 1-shotted them and kept running while the group delt with the mob. Then they'd know you were there and would not sit or make very easy pulls. That was the reality. The other reality was like this guy said, some level 30 caster bitching when some level 50 one shotted them, when the patch notes specifically said that DF is a dangerous place and an RVR ZONE just like frontiers.
One shot and staying stealthed was a great thing to have an rewarded the assassin who chose their targets wisely and waited for the right moment (i.e. sitting or injured) which is what this class should be but instead we're light tanks.
Quote:Up until the original 1.50 patch, Assassin characters were able to remain hidden if they killed their target in one shot. This "ability" has been in the game since the inception of Critical Strike Combat Styles. However, we never intended for it to work that way - it is generally not a good game dynamic to have stealthed characters killing people and not becoming visible. Some assassins (not all, just some) were abusing this "ability" to one-shot kill "gray" level enemies and kill them with no chance of being found. But, at the time that we found out that assassins were able to do this, the assassin classes as a whole were still a bit underpowered, so we made the choice not to fix the bug.
As most assassins know, in the 1.50 patch, we inadvertently fixed the "one shot kill but remaining stealthed" bug (by fixing a few bugs relating to hidden players attacking monsters). Now that assassin characters are no longer underpowered, and no longer need any additional advantages, we have decided to keep this fix in. So, assassins will no longer be able to remain stealthed after one-shot kills. Assassins will still be able to kill some lower level (and probably "blue" level mages) characters in one shot, but no longer will they be able to do this with the impunity that they have enjoyed.
DF came out in 1.49, so I doubt it had anything to do with it, it was the complaints previous to DF that caused it. And, as the patch notes says, I think the 'assassin love' a couple patches prior to DF were the cause. And yes, we could 1-shot blues. Tanks, no. But then again, I still don't go after tanks.
The point is moot, though. I was just trying to say that Nage's rant was unjustly portraying mythic.
Edited by: Ayra Underfoot at: 4/1/04 3:13 pm
Nage42 Registered User
Posts: 516
(4/1/04 7:52 pm) Reply
Re: vanish
Yep, I'm way off base.
Mythic is careful and considerate about their changes and new developments implementations. They carefully weight the dynamic and how it will affect the delicate balance as a whole. In instances of aberance they examine the problem in depth and act in controlled, metered, and step-by-step fashion so as not to over-correct.
I see the light.... thx.
The first part wasn't a rant, it was tautological soliloquy actually. The end part was bombastic rhetoric... which I suppose is rant.
Other than my style in presenting what I feel as an issue, do you honestly feel that I am far off base in my statements? I appreciate that you may have issues with the _style_ I present, but surely not the underlying content?!? Cause I'm spot-on for the dynamic that they create for themselves.
edit: and to the mods, I can't believe you're nerfing the Unix command "f.s.c.k" it's for file system check, very important! Unix SAs of the world unite! don't take away our f s c k!
Re: vanish
Your first point about one-shotting, was off base. Your second point on not being able to get groups is also off base. Both of which I've already mentioned why, so reread that. The last part about the new RAs I said I agreed with you on. Edited by: Ayra Underfoot at: 4/1/04 8:28 pm
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