Talisman rules
I was designing Laertes' talisman and musing about adding various precious gems, when a concern struck me regarding the crafting rules. If I understand the rules correctly, Laertes would have to be able to invest vis in the highest value part of his creation (say a precious gem) before he turns it into his talisman, which means he would need a Magic Theory score of 8. I realise that it's possible to add more vis to a talisman thereafter, but the initial creation seems bound by the MT score. Does this accord with everyone else's understanding? If so, it'll be semi-precious gems only for Laertes!
Re: Talisman rules
From the earlier Talisman thread I was under the impression that the consensus was that you could open the enchantment with a minimum of one pawn (then further extend that enchantment by any amount each time thereafter).
However, I agree the rules appear to be a bit ambivalent on this issue: On p97 (preparing for a typical enchantment) the rules suggest that you can prepare an item in full or, with compound items, prepare only the component which requires the highest number of pawns.
On the other hand, on p98 where it talks specifically about the Talisman it says; "Unlike other items, the capacity of a talisman may be opened a bit at a time. A magus could open one pawn's worth every season if he wished, although that is inefficient."
If we use the rule on p 97 we will either a) restrict the materials people can use in their Talisman or , b) cause players to postpone making their Talisman for a long time (getting to MT 8 will take a long time for everyone except Lucca). However, I think that goes against the intention behind the new Talisman and Familiar (which have much more flexibility and can be extended as the magus grows in age and power) - thus encouraging younger magi to invest in these items early (rather than when very, very old as the AM3 system encouraged).
So, my opinion is this; that the intention of the Talisman rules is to allow the creation of a particularly flexible item ('unlike other items') that you can start young and develop over your career as a magus. Thus, I'm content for magi to open the capacity of the item a bit at time (thus allowing any materials you want).
Edited by: Badger101 at: 4/2/07 9:52
Re: Talisman rules
Under this proposal when does the attunement as a Talisman happen? In the 2nd paragraph of talisman attunement (p.9 it says that it takes one season to attune a talisman as long as you prepared it for enchantment yourself. This makes sense if you initially have to prepare for enchantment as normal. Page 97 makes clear that when preparing for enchantment it is not possible to partially open a single item (2nd to last paragraph). As the item clearly can't know that it is going to be enchanted as a Talisman in the future this would seem to suggest it would need to be attuned prior to the initial vis investment - but it is clear that this is not the intention. An alternative might be to have the attunement happen in the same season as the preparation as a linked effect but this would be a season cheaper than laid down in the book and again there is no suggestion in the rules that this is the case.
My interpretation remains that the item must be opened for enchantment as a normal magic item (including high magic theory scores for the better items - I would need at least MT of 6 for mine). Thereafter more vis can be added to advance the capacity to the Techinique + Form limit permitted for talismans - bit by bit if desired as your arts increase. This seems to me to reflect everything that is said in the two pages of the core rules that cover talismans.
Re: Talisman rules
I agree with Pad. I found this thread on the AM board that makes it clear that you have to invest vis in the item on a normal basis first and only then do you turn it into a talisman, which invokes the talisman-specific rules for investing vis.
See page 3 of the thread, where David Chart clarifies the meaning of the rules.
Although I don't think we should slavishly follow the rules "just because", in this case I'd vote for sticking with the rulebook.
Re: Talisman rules
The rules as per many in AM5 are confusing and often seem to be contradictory. However after rereading the rules on both “Preparing for Enchantment” and the “Talisman” rules, I have to concur with Pad and Nick W. I’ve also run through the process in the Metacreator AM5 Application, it too requires you to open an item for enchantment first, then attune the talisman; following that you can invest any amount of additional vim vis up to your max Technique + Form.
I guess the main flexibility with the new talismans rules is that you can create them at a younger age, because the number of effects that can be placed within increases as your arts mature, you’re not going to run out of space.
The obvious immediate impact on compound items is the ruby purchased in Constantinople for Mesticia. Obviously the required MT8 is a long way off for her.
I am unsure as to whether we follow the canon rules or adapt our own. Lucca’s got his Verditius magic, so this decision won’t affect him unless the unlikely event of deciding to craft a golden boat as his talisman occurs.
Perhaps as a House Rule adaptation to “Help in the Laboratory” a lab assistant could give a bonus to the amount of vis that a magus can use in one season?
Any thoughts? Edited by: SimpleSimon101 at: 5/2/07 21:43
Re: Talisman rules
Yep - that's a fair point. Having read through again the implication does appear to be that you invest the item first, then attune it.
Unless players particularly want to change the rule there, we can stick to what is written.
Quote:The obvious immediate impact on compound items is the ruby purchased in Constantinople for Mesticia. Obviously the required MT8 is a long way off for her.
Yep - stiffed by my careless reading of the talisman rules! Oh well Edited by: Badger101 at: 6/2/07 17:35
Re: Talisman rules
I think it would be reasonable to allow Mestitia to reverse her purchase if she wouldn't have gone ahead knowing the real requirements.
Also, for clarification, my assumption has always been that diamonds, rubies etc normally count as precious (15 pawns) rather than priceless (20 pawns). Correct or incorrect? It makes quite a difference in terms of the ability to invest vis. Indeed, in Laertes' medium lab, he cannot invest more than 16 pawns, even if his MT allows.
Re: Talisman rules
I've no problem with Mesticia changing her mind regarding the ruby, though she may choose to keep it for the future.
I personally assumed Rubies, Diamonds etc. were precious rather than priceless stones.
I imagined Priceless gems to be either uniquely cut versions of Precious gems or very rare stones such as the pink diamond, black diamonds, star sapphires etc. I’d imagined these would be extremely rare items with their own unique material bonuses. Edited by: SimpleSimon101 at: 6/2/07 20:54
Quote:I think it would be reasonable to allow Mestitia to reverse her purchase if she wouldn't have gone ahead knowing the real requirements.
I might take advantage of that thanks - can you recall what I paid for it ~7 Solidi?
Quote:Also, for clarification, my assumption has always been that diamonds, rubies etc normally count as precious (15 pawns) rather than priceless (20 pawns).
As a general rule - anything you can buy in a gem market counts up to precious. Priceless gems (e.g. a huge flawless ruby or incredibly rare type of diamond) have to be obtained through adventure, competition (e.g. House) or some other story route, I'd say.
Quote:I’d imagined these would be extremely rare items with their own unique material bonuses.
Yeah, I'd agree - I'd imagine such unique gemstones sought after by very old magi of House Verditius for instance.
Edited by: Badger101 at: 7/2/07 17:01
Quote: Quote:I think it would be reasonable to allow Mestitia to reverse her purchase if she wouldn't have gone ahead knowing the real requirements.
I might take advantage of that thanks - can you recall what I paid for it ~7 Solidi?
I don't remember exactly, but I think it was either 7 or 8. I don't think Mestitia spent much more than that - perhaps a few folles on semi-precious gems - so you should be able to work out the cost using a bit of arithmetic if you have her character sheet.
Curses. I've just realised that I haven't factored Laertes' Waster of Vis flaw into my calculations. This means he wastes a third of all vis used.
Does this mean he needs a MT of 8 to open up a semi-precious stone for enchantment (i.e. MT 8 = 16 pawns - 4 wasted = 12 pawns, which is the requirement for semi-precious stones)?
Or can he do it with a MT 6, but only receive credit for the non-wasted vis (i.e. MT 6 = 12 pawns (requirement), but only 8 pawns available for enchantments)?
Re: Talisman rules
I think that you have to use 16 pawns so need a magic theory of 8. The example in the flaw says that if you normally use 12 pawns (as you highlight the amount required for a semi-precious stone) then you use 16. Effectively on laboratory work you must use a third again of the normal cost and you require magic theory x2 based on the vis used. Damn those major hermetic flaws eh?
Re: Talisman rules
I'm afraid this seems to be the case.
Quote:WASTER OF VIS
Major, Hermetic
"Wasted pawns count toward the maximum number you can use at one time."
Still at least your lab is actually big enough to allow that much vis to be used once you've reached MT8.
With the nice material bonuses you get from several woods and the +5 to destroy things at a distance, I'm surprised you're not going for a bow talisman.
Re: Talisman rules
Given that Laertes can't use any of the more exotic elements, how about the following? I reckon this will require MT 6, but let me know if you disagree.
An oak wand (1), with bands of silver (2), iron (3), brass (4) and bronze (5) and a magnet (6) set in the end.
Wand: +2 repel things,+3 project bolt/missile,+4 control things at a distance, +4 destroy things at a distance
Wood (dead):+3 affect living wood, +4 affect dead wood
Oak: +7 protection from storms
Silver: +10 harm lycanthropes
Iron: +7 harm or repel faeries, +3 bonds
Brass: +4 demons, devils and angels, +3 Ignem, +3 music
Bronze: +5 darkness, +3 Terram
Magnet: +2 Rego, +4 Rego Corpus, +4 Rego Terram
Edited by: Ruaridh at: 23/3/07 12:58
it says that it takes one season to attune a talisman as long as you prepared it for enchantment yourself. This makes sense if you initially have to prepare for enchantment as normal. Page 97 makes clear that when preparing for enchantment it is not possible to partially open a single item (2nd to last paragraph). As the item clearly can't know that it is going to be enchanted as a Talisman in the future this would seem to suggest it would need to be attuned prior to the initial vis investment - but it is clear that this is not the intention. An alternative might be to have the attunement happen in the same season as the preparation as a linked effect but this would be a season cheaper than laid down in the book and again there is no suggestion in the rules that this is the case. 
Edited by: 
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies