The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)
Rationale:
The Parma magica should protect magi from magical attacks and give as little room as possible for exploitative spells that somehow bypass that protection.
However, the Parma should be a passive defence against magic - and the system should not allow exploits in which spells can be used make the Parma resist otherwise physical attacks.
However, there are some aspects to the covenant which I want to be persistently challenging. The original rationale was a 'survivalist' covenant - and that entails that there are threats which are not easily warded, and must be physically (and magically) defended. This means there are certain magical things (some created objects or shapeshifted entities which are physically used to attack) that I would like Magi to remain vulnerable to.
A suppressive Parma almost works - save for circumstances where a more deadly threat is transformed into a less deadly one. One way around this is to simply make the Parma Magica 'intelligent' so that we (as a troupe) can interpret whether a spell is suppressed or blocked.
However, I want Parma to be consistent and reliable - especially with so many of us reff'ing and particularly in a character crisis situation. So, I would like to keep troupe decisions to the 'is this spell allowable' level - rather than the 'can I apply this spell in this way' level (if that makes sense).
i.e. when a person designs a new spell, we have a chance (as a troupe) to veto or modify it. When the spell is in play - I'd like it's interaction with magical resistance to follow reliable rules.
In my next post I'll try and suggest a system to fulfil all these different aims. Before criticising (and I hope you're not all too bored with this topic to mentally play test it) I'd ask two things.
1) That you apply all the rules that I suggest - there may be an exclusion to an exploit that you have missed.
2) If you suggest a spell that exploits the Parma, then you use the book and carefully work out the level and effects of the spell. This avoids potential claims of 'exploits' which turn out to be ritual level or automatically hitting (thus resistable) or something.
Note: I'm not implying that anyone has failed to do these in previous discussions, just asking that we try to stick to these rules so that we keep focussed on the main issues.
Here goes ...
Edited by: Badger101 at: 1/2/06 21:14
Any spell that automatically and directly affects the magus requires the effect to penetrate resistance.
There are some spells that do not affect the magus directly (e.g. creating a pit in the Earth). These environmental spells require a targeting roll to place them (e.g. above or below the Magus). The victim always gets a defence roll to deflect / dodge / avoid such indirect attacks.
A 'mundane' object can always penetrate Parma. If there is a spell effect upon a ‘mundane’ object, then the effect is suppressed unless it penetrates magical resistance.
Entities with a Might score - or that are created using momentary rituals - have physical attacks which count as 'mundane'.
Creo spells:
Some magical creations count as 'mundane' for the purposes of magical resistance. Whether an object counts as 'mundane' is determined by the troupe when the spell is designed; judgements should follow these guidelines.
If a Creo Animal or Corpus is used to enhance the characteristics of a 'mundane' object (within +5 of the average) - then the object still counts as 'mundane'. The troupe may decide similar enhancements for Herbam or Terram crafted items to also remain 'mundane'.
Animal: If the beast created is 'typical for its variety' then it counts as a 'mundane' object. A rule of thumb would be the bestiary - if the animal does not deviate from the normal limits for the creature's statistics, then it counts as 'mundane'. Note: animals are always created on the ground (or in water for fish) - only animals that can fly can be created in the air.
Corpus: A person created or changed by magic must be within normal limits of human statistics to qualify as 'mundane'.
Herbam and Terram: 'Mundane' versions of these objects will be found in weapon lists or are agreed (by the troupe) to exist in nature (e.g. a tree or a rock). These items are created upon the ground or in the hand. If they are physically picked up and wielded, then they count as 'mundane'.
Ignem, Aquam and Auram:
Whilst these things exist in nature, magical versions of them are never considered 'mundane'.
(Note: with ignem it is possible to use magic to ignite something that is naturally flammable. Once lit, the flames are perfectly natural - therefore mundane)
Imaginem: Imaginem species are always considered 'mundane' - however spells that are placed upon a Magus need to penetrate Magical Resistance.
Mentem and Vim: These effects have no mundane form and are always suppressed by magical resistance.
Intellego Spells:
Always suppressed.
Muto Spells: (note: this is definitely where the problem lies - and some sort of compromise will inevitably have to be made about these effects)
A spell effect may be expelled, suppressed, or leave the item 'mundane' depending on a troupe decision when the spell is designed; judgements should use the Creo definitions of 'mundane' and follow these guidelines.
The object is transformed to a 'mundane' one: The object is treated as ‘mundane’. (e.g. a boulder turned into a 'mundane' stone - strikes as a stone when thrown)
The object is transformed to one that is not 'mundane':
The spell is suppressed. (e.g. a fire which has damage increased by +1 has the +1 effect suppressed - not the fire).
In cases where a harmful object is disguised as harmless: As the person brings their body close (within the Parma - assuming it resists) they sense the change momentarily - before the spell is suppressed – they automatically detect this change and have a choice about continuing their action. (e.g. the poison to milk spell - the magus automatically smells or sees the change in the liquid as it gets close to his mouth)
In the case where an object is shrunk and used as a missile The force, therefore the damage, with which it impacts is equivalent to the object that was physically thrown. (e.g. with the boulder to 'unnatural' stone spell, the force with which it hits [and therefore the damage] is equivalent to the stone – see Rego and lack of momentum).
If a person consumes a 'mundane' object that has been transformed: The Parma Magica automatically expels the object as it reaches the end of its duration. e.g. a boulder turned into a stone is coughed up before the spell ends. The magus receives no penalty for a resisted effect being expelled. (i.e. even if someone finds a way around previous rules then the object is simply removed, and no harm is caused)
Perdo Spells:
Always suppressed by Parma.
Rego spells:
If the spell effect upon the mundane object is one to make it move and strike a Magus then, assuming the spell effect is resisted, the damage associated with the object is negated. The object has no momentum and strikes with no force, because the Rego spell to move it has been suppressed. (note: this has ramifications for Strike of the Angered Branch type spells – the Rego requisite means they are resisted. However, Leap of Fire still works - because it is not the momentum of the fire that causes damage, but the proximity of the flames. Note though, that created fire is never 'mundane')
Finally:
A Magus can automatically overcome his Parma when he wants to physically interact with a magical object.
edit: changed the last section, so that magi can choose to interact with magical objects. Added Simon's suggestion that Creo spells to boost characteristics keep the animal 'mundane'. Also added AM5 canon rule whereby creatures with a Might score, or created by momentary rituals are not affected by Parma.Edited by: Badger101 at: 2/2/06 15:45
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)
A lengthy and involved exposition, to be sure, but it all sounds reasonable to me. I'd be happy to go with it.
The only possible issues I can see are all minor/trivial annoyances - e.g. a Magus cannot pick up a magically created sword if it is preternaturally sharp. Does the sword simply move out of the way as he tried to grasp it? Similarly, would a Magus fall out of the saddle of a magically created griffon or preternaturally swift horse? How silly.
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)a Magus cannot pick up a magically created sword if it is preternaturally sharp. Does the sword simply move out of the way as he tried to grasp it?
If the target were 'part' (i.e. the edge of the blade) then he could pick it up (though the edge of the blade would be suppressed if he tried to hit someone).
If the whole blade was created to be supernaturally sharp (e.g. made of diamond or something) - then he wouldn't be able to pick it up without suppressing his Parma.
Similarly, would a Magus fall out of the saddle of a magically created griffon or preternaturally swift horse?
The magus would technically have to suppress his Parma to ride these supernatural creatures. However, to create these would almost certainly be ritual level (i.e. greater than lvl 50) - so the question is a moot one. An object invested as a momentary ritual always counts as a mundane object (sorry that was assumed from AM5 canon - but not specified above).
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)
It would be really helpful if people would list the spell design and level of the spells they think circumvent this system - otherwise it becomes very difficult for me to determine whether it really is a problem ...
a Magus cannot pick up a magically created sword if it is preternaturally sharp
Alternatively, the extra sharp sword might be mundane. It would be for the troupe to decide.
e.g. Laertes visits a the forge of an alchemical smith, who produces incredibly fine steel which, when crafted into a blade, affords +2 damage. He decides to develop a spell to recreate these swords - as statistics for such exist in the game, the troupe allow the conjured sword to count as 'mundane'.
Similarly, would a Magus fall out of the saddle of a magically created griffon ...
Conjure the Griffon CrAn (Au, Vi) 50
Creates a Griffon (I've assumed it can fly and has size +3) with a Magic Might of 50.
[B: 15, R: Touch +1, D: Sun +2, T: Ind; Size +2; Requisites +2]
Conjured magical creatures (requiring a Vim requisite) have a magical might which cannot exceed the level of the spell.
So - a way around this issue would be that anything with a Might score (even if conjured) is treated like a magical creature rather than a spell effect. So, in the same way that fae with a Might score can physically touch you through Parma, so might a magical griffon.
... or preternaturally swift horse?
If the caster used magic to create a supernaturally augmented horse, then he'd need to suppress Parma to ride it. It also would not be able to kick him in the face without penetrating Parma. However, as a troupe we'd probably be quite conservative about allowing the conjuration of such pre-augmented creatures - generally speaking - to summon a horse is one spell, to augment its speed is another.
However, the rule of thumb is the bestiary, which might be extended as the magus discovers new animals. The troupe may allow a 'faster horse' when you have designed and intend to create the spell.
For instance - on his travels Laertes meets some of the Horde and is impressed by their breed of horses that can run slightly faster than most Eurpoean breeds (+1 to quickness). The troupe agree that if he creates a spell to conjure that breed of horse, then it would have the better quickness, yet still be mundane.
Edited by: Badger101 at: 2/2/06 7:01
Quote:a Magus cannot pick up a magically created sword if it is preternaturally sharp
There are mundane examples of superior arms in the system (granting +2), so there is a mundane precedent for an enhanced sword. I would see a CrTe spell being able to improve the sharpness of a sword and still remain mundane (Creo makes things that exist independently into better things of their kind. pg77). However while MuTe spell can achieve the same effects, the object would no longer count as mundane. The same would be true of the superior horse, if improved with Creo then that’s mundane, Muto would be preternatural in some way.
This leads on to a potential problem (unless hopefully I’m mistaken).
To my understanding, if I used a mundane horse and either cast a Creo or Muto spell to improve the beast’s performance, my understanding is that I could ride the beast but the magic would be suppressed by my parma???
Assuming that is the case, does that mean that any magical augmentation/effect, whether its target is an object, animal, person, can be suppressed by a magus coming into touch range with the target (assuming the spell doesn’t penetrate his PM?).
This would be an unfortunate side effect of being able to suppress other peoples magic’s merely by coming into contact with them (assuming the magus had a sufficient enough PM for the effect not to penetrate).
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)
Ok - the problem simply lies with this bit ...
Finally:
A Magus cannot automatically overcome his Parma when he wants to physically interact with a magical object. Only 'mundane' objects are not resisted.
(So, mundane horses and swords are fine - but otherwise you'll have to suppress your Parma [or have your Parma suppress it]). e.g. if you create a magical fire to keep warm, you will have to suppress your Parma to feel its effects.
I thought it might be a fun idea (having to sometimes risk suppressing your Parma to allow interaction with some objects) - but clearly it is raising more problems. So - I've changed it back to my original idea; thus magi are allowed to physically touch/ride etc with magical objects.
Quote:I thought it might be a fun idea (having to sometimes risk suppressing your Parma to allow interaction with some objects) - but clearly it is raising more problems. So - I've changed it back to my original idea; thus magi are allowed to physically touch/ride etc with magical objects.
I agree with you that it would add a nice element of danger into the system. However since Parma is supposed to be defensive by nature, it didn't feel right that you could abuse it to suppress magic’s that aren’t targeting you. Edited by: SimpleSimon101 at: 2/2/06 14:48
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)However since Parma is supposed to be defensive by nature, it didn't feel right that you could abuse it to suppress magic’s that aren’t targeting you.
Ah ... perhaps I understand better what you mean. I don't think it can be abused like that. The Parma does not dispel a magical effect - it merely causes it to wash around a magus.
I agree this could sometimes be a problem for magical objects (like horses) - but remember it is only the magus who is immune by virtue of resistance. If you walk into a magical fire - and resist it - the fire does not go out, it simply washes around you.
Putting the 'can touch' back in - gets rid of this issue I hope.
Re: The "Common Sense" parma (with story caveats)
SimpleSimon101 said So an Analogy would be magic is oil and the parma magica is water. Magic that doesn’t penetrate the parma slides across its surface leaving the Magus safe.
Badger 101 replied: Aye - it never dispels the magical effect. So a mundane sword with 'Blade of virulent flame' cast on it strikes the Parma. The sword hits, but the flames (assuming Parma resists) simply wash harmlessly around the Magus.
If a wolf has it's teeth transformed to iron and bites a faerie (and the spell does not penetrate) - then the 'mundane' teeth still bite, but the iron has no effect.
It makes magic slightly ephemeral - the wolf doesn't have 'iron teeth' - merely teeth with an iron enchantment upon them. I could easily waffle about essential nature if we ever need an in-game reason for this. Edited by: Badger101 at: 2/2/06 15:21
Quote:Similarly, would a Magus fall out of the saddle of a magically created griffon ...
Conjure the Griffon CrAn (Au, Vi) 50
Creates a Griffon (I've assumed it can fly and has size +3) with a Magic Might of 50.
[B: 15, R: Touch +1, D: Sun +2, T: Ind; Size +2; Requisites +2]
Conjured magical creatures (requiring a Vim requisite) have a magical might which cannot exceed the level of the spell.
By the by, I was checking the CrAn guidelines and noticed that any magical creature has a base level of 50 - with touch range that makes it a ritual (therefore, logically, momentary and not resisted by parma).
Conjure the Griffon CrAn 65
Requisites: Vim
Creates a magical griffon with Might 30 (up to 65, but the caster might want a chance of 'Rego'ing afterwards!)
[B: 50, R: Touch +1, D: Momentary, T: Ind, Size +2]
(Requisite given free - and I've dropped the Auram requisite - because 'flight' isn't really a 'magical power')