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ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 679
(4/2/04 1:26 am)
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Those desperate rangers
-------------------------
Desperate Bowman

Melee style used with a bow. Does 300 damage and a 5 second (duration undiminished by resists) stun. Bow cannot be used for 30 seconds afterwards, and the ranger cannot attack in any way for 10 seconds. A ranger will only be unable to attack if they are successful in breaking their bow over their opponents head.
--------------------------

And this is how the "desperate" bowman performs when an assassin successfully performs a critical strike on him:

*** Chat Log Opened: Fri Apr 02 11:26:11 2004

[11:26:18] You auto-stick Lurikeen.
[11:26:19] You enter combat mode and target [Vanesse]
[11:26:19] You prepare to perform a Perforate Artery!
[11:26:19] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly. (+395)
[11:26:19] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 462 (-51) damage!
[11:26:19] Vanesse is surrounded by constricting bonds!
[11:26:19] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 76 (-31) damage!
[11:26:19] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:19] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:19] You are no longer hidden!
[11:26:19] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:19] You hit Vanesse for 4 damage!
[11:26:20] You prepare to perform a Creeping Death!
[11:26:21] You perform your Creeping Death perfectly. (+88)
[11:26:21] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 194 (-22) damage!
[11:26:21] Vanesse already has that effect.
[11:26:21] Wait until it expires. Spell Failed
[11:26:21] A dark shroud covers Vanesse and slowly absorbs into their skin!
[11:26:21] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 83 (-34) damage!
[11:26:21] A barrier absorbs 83 damage of your attack!
[11:26:21] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:21] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:21] Vanesse cannot seem to move!
[11:26:22] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:22] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:23] You miss!
[11:26:23] You fumble the attack and take time to recover!
[11:26:24] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:24] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:24] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:24] You hit Vanesse for 4 damage!
[11:26:25] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:25] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:25] You cast a Rain of Annihilation Spell!
[11:26:25] Your weapons are able to pierce the spirit of your enemies.
[11:26:25] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+44)
[11:26:25] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 125 (-27) damage!
[11:26:25] A barrier absorbs 117 damage of your attack!
[11:26:25] You hit Vanesse for 12 extra damage!
[11:26:25] Vanesse already has that effect.
[11:26:25] Wait until it expires. Spell Failed
[11:26:25] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:26] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:27] You have already selected your styles for this round!
[11:26:27] You have already selected your styles for this round!
[11:26:27] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+50)
[11:26:27] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 141 (-31) damage!
[11:26:27] You hit Vanesse for 16 extra damage!
[11:26:27] You miss!
[11:26:28] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:29] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:29] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:29] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:29] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:29] Vanesse hits you for 113 damage.
[11:26:29] Vanesse does 9 extra damage to you!
[11:26:29] Vanesse hits you for 9 damage.
[11:26:29] A dark shroud covers you and slowly absorbs into your skin!
[11:26:29] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:29] Your melee buffer absorbs 90 damage!
[11:26:29] Vanesse hits you for 0 damage.
[11:26:29] Vanesse does 11 extra damage to you!
[11:26:29] Vanesse hits you for 11 damage.
[11:26:29] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+40)
[11:26:29] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 113 (-25) damage!
[11:26:29] You hit Vanesse for 14 extra damage!
[11:26:30] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:30] You hit Vanesse for 3 damage!
[11:26:30] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:30] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:30] Vanesse casts a spell!
[11:26:30] Vanesse toughens themselves up.
[11:26:31] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:31] Your melee buffer absorbs 103 damage!
[11:26:31] Vanesse hits you for 0 damage.
[11:26:31] Vanesse does 10 extra damage to you!
[11:26:31] Vanesse hits you for 10 damage.
[11:26:31] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:31] Your melee buffer absorbs 7 damage and dissipates!
[11:26:31] Vanesse hits you for 70 damage.
[11:26:31] Vanesse does 10 extra damage to you!
[11:26:31] Vanesse hits you for 10 damage.
[11:26:31] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+32)
[11:26:31] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 91 (-20) damage!
[11:26:31] You hit Vanesse for 15 extra damage!
[11:26:31] You fumble the attack and take time to recover!
[11:26:32] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:32] Vanesse hits you for 95 damage.
[11:26:32] Vanesse does 11 extra damage to you!
[11:26:32] Vanesse hits you for 11 damage.
[11:26:32] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:32] Vanesse hits you for 81 damage.
[11:26:32] Vanesse does 9 extra damage to you!
[11:26:32] Vanesse hits you for 9 damage.
[11:26:33] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:33] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:34] You attempt to use the strong elixir of endurance.
[11:26:34] You use the strong elixir of endurance.
[11:26:34] You regain 92 endurance!
[11:26:34] The strong elixir of endurance is used up!
[11:26:34] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:34] You evade Vanesse's attack!
[11:26:34] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:34] You hit Vanesse for 2 damage!
[11:26:35] You enter combat mode and target [Vanesse]
[11:26:35] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:35] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:36] You have already selected your styles for this round!
[11:26:36] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:36] Vanesse hits you for 122 damage.
[11:26:36] Vanesse does 12 extra damage to you!
[11:26:36] Vanesse hits you for 12 damage.
[11:26:36] Vanesse hits you for 59 damage.
[11:26:36] Your Heat resistance has decreased.
[11:26:36] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:36] Vanesse hits you for 83 damage.
[11:26:36] Vanesse does 9 extra damage to you!
[11:26:36] Vanesse hits you for 9 damage.
[11:26:36] A vampiric mist is called forth from beyond.
[11:26:36] You have already selected your styles for this round!
[11:26:36] The vampiric mist hits your head for 23 (-9) damage!
[11:26:37] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+31)
[11:26:37] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 87 (-19) damage!
[11:26:37] You hit Vanesse for 14 extra damage!
[11:26:37] Vanesse evades your attack!
[11:26:37] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:37] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:37] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:37] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:37] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:37] You evade Vanesse's attack!
[11:26:38] You perform your Dragonfang perfectly. (+60)
[11:26:38] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 130 (-28) damage!
[11:26:38] You hit Vanesse for 14 extra damage!
[11:26:38] A dark shroud covers Vanesse and slowly absorbs into their skin!
[11:26:38] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 66 (-19) damage!
[11:26:38] A barrier absorbs 66 damage of your attack!
[11:26:38] You hit Vanesse for 12 extra damage!
[11:26:38] Vanesse can't have that effect again yet!
[11:26:39] The vampiric mist hits you for 52 damage.
[11:26:39] The vampiric mist drains your life for its master.
[11:26:39] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:39] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:39] Vanesse hits you for 109 damage.
[11:26:39] Vanesse does 11 extra damage to you!
[11:26:39] Vanesse hits you for 11 damage.
[11:26:39] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:39] The vampiric mist hits your torso for 27 (-10) damage!
[11:26:39] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:39] You hit Vanesse for 2 damage!
[11:26:40] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+32)
[11:26:40] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 91 (-20) damage!
[11:26:40] A barrier absorbs 91 damage of your attack!
[11:26:40] You hit Vanesse for 12 extra damage!
[11:26:40] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 59 (-17) damage!
[11:26:40] A barrier absorbs 43 damage of your attack!
[11:26:40] You hit Vanesse for 14 extra damage!
[11:26:41] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:41] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:41] Vanesse is poisoned!
[11:26:41] You hit Vanesse for 56 damage!
[11:26:41] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:41] Vanesse hits you for 135 damage.
[11:26:41] Vanesse does 10 extra damage to you!
[11:26:41] Vanesse hits you for 10 damage.
[11:26:41] Vanesse attacks you with her dagger!
[11:26:41] Vanesse hits you for 92 damage.
[11:26:41] Vanesse does 11 extra damage to you!
[11:26:41] Vanesse hits you for 11 damage.
[11:26:42] You miss!
[11:26:42] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 59 (-17) damage!
[11:26:42] You hit Vanesse for 12 extra damage!
[11:26:43] The vampiric mist attacks you and misses!
[11:26:43] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:43] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:43] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:43] Vanesse hits you for 159 damage.
[11:26:43] Vanesse does 9 extra damage to you!
[11:26:43] Vanesse hits you for 9 damage.
[11:26:43] Vanesse hits you for 73 damage.
[11:26:43] Vanesse is surrounded by an acidic cloud!
[11:26:43] You hit Vanesse for 71 damage!
[11:26:44] You are no longer auto-following your target.
[11:26:44] Ereinion was just killed by Hagendaz!
[11:26:44] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+33)
[11:26:44] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 93 (-20) damage!
[11:26:44] You critical hit for an additional 19 damage!
[11:26:44] You hit Vanesse for 17 extra damage!
[11:26:44] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 68 (-19) damage!
[11:26:44] You hit Vanesse for 11 extra damage!
[11:26:45] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:45] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:45] Vanesse is bleeding!
[11:26:45] You hit Vanesse for 1 damage!
[11:26:45] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:45] Vanesse hits you for 215 damage.
[11:26:45] Vanesse does 11 extra damage to you!
[11:26:45] Vanesse hits you for 11 damage.
[11:26:46] The vampiric mist hits your leg for 29 (-11) damage!
[11:26:46] You perform your Sting perfectly. (+40)
[11:26:46] You attack Vanesse with your stiletto and hit for 112 (-25) damage!
[11:26:46] You hit Vanesse for 13 extra damage!
[11:26:46] You hit for 42 (-13) damage!
[11:26:46] A dark shroud covers Vanesse and slowly absorbs into their skin!
[11:26:46] You attack Vanesse with your dirk and hit for 62 (-18) damage!
[11:26:46] A barrier absorbs 62 damage of your attack!
[11:26:46] You hit Vanesse for 15 extra damage!
[11:26:46] You prepare to perform a Dragonfang!
[11:26:46] You are now preparing to perform a Sting style as a backup for Dragonfang!
[11:26:47] Vanesse attacks you with her adze!
[11:26:47] Vanesse hits you for 229 damage.
[11:26:47] Sharee was just killed by Vanesse!
[11:26:47] Your inner peace leaves you.
[11:26:47] Your holy aura wears off.
[11:26:47] Your agility returns to normal.
[11:26:47] Your Dexterity has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your Quickness has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your strength returns to normal.
[11:26:47] Your Strength has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your Constitution has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your hits have decreased.
[11:26:47] Your holy aura wears off.
[11:26:47] Your agility returns to normal.
[11:26:47] Your Dexterity has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your health returns to normal.
[11:26:47] Your Constitution has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your hits have decreased.
[11:26:47] Your strength returns to normal.
[11:26:47] Your Strength has decreased.
[11:26:47] Your heat vulnerability fades.
[11:26:47] Your Heat resistance increased.
[11:26:47] You have died. Type /release to return to your last bind point.
[11:26:47] You died fighting for your realm and lose no experience!

----------------------------------

So, tell me: Anyone else thinks the name of the ranger unique RA is quite out of place?

Caowyth
Registered User
Posts: 4389
(4/2/04 8:16 am)
Reply

Re: Those desperate rangers
I was thinking that rather than using it at the beginning of a fight, a ranger could switch to his bow and use it to end a fight as well.

But from your log, there's a lot that we aren't seeing. Looks like her dagger proc'd, and that got her at least some life back, as well.

Also, you're not mentioning that you're a RR4 Inf going up against a RR10 Ranger...

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 680
(4/2/04 11:01 am)
Reply

re
------------
"Also, you're not mentioning that you're a RR4 Inf going up against a RR10 Ranger..."
------------

The question is: Would a RR10 Inf have a chance to beat a RR4 ranger at pure ranged combat when that ranger starts it with landing a crit shot on the inf?

Because if not, then neither should a RR10 ranger have a chance to beat a RR4 inf at pure melee combat when that inf starts it with landing a crit strike on the ranger.

Or, in other words, the sum of ranged and melee combat abilities should be equal for the ranger and the inf. Currently a ranger outdamages me 4 to 1 at ranged combat, but i do not outdamage him 4 to 1 at melee combat(more like 1.2 to 1).

I see this as a balance problem, and have sent a feedback explaining my views to Mythic.

Caowyth
Registered User
Posts: 4393
(4/2/04 11:22 am)
Reply

Re: re
1) She was using a legendary fire weapon. It proc'd on you, and your armor is weak to fire to begin with.

2) She has at least 50 more points to spend on RA's.

3) Your analogy is wrong. The supposed definitive attack of a Ranger is Ranged (But I know many Rangers that don't go high in Ranged and instead work high on melee skills). The definitive attack of an Infiltrator/Assassin is PA.

A RR4 Assassin landing a perf on a RR10 Ranger has a chance of winning the fight, but definitely no guarantee. A RR4 Ranger landing a Crit Shot on an Assassin has a good chance of winning the fight, but again, no guarantee.

The opposite is also true. A RR10 Ranger Crit Shotting a RR4 assassin has a very good chance of winning. A RR10 Assassin Perfing a RR4 Ranger will almost always win.

4) The Ranger has better access to melee RA's, such as Ignore Pain. This compounds with #2, in that she definitely has enough points to buy them.


You went into a situation with a questionable advantage (Landing the perf) against someone who was the equivalent of 6 levels higher than you. The RR10 Ranger knows how to play her class, and has probably spec'd to be able to defend herself against her natural predator.

Rangers are good at both bows and melee depending on spec.

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 681
(4/2/04 11:37 am)
Reply

re
-----------
"1) She was using a legendary fire weapon."
-----------

And i was using a legendary cold weapon. This is actually a part of the problem. A ranger using a heat LW will have a 15% damage bonus against an assassin and the best i can have against him is 5%

Another problem is the DW-halves-evade thing. I lose 25% of my defense due to it, while he loses only 7.5%. Another 17.5% advantage to ranger, so with the above, we are at 27.5% already.

-----------
"2) She has at least 50 more points to spend on RA's."
-----------

This is irrelevant. An assassin having 50 more points to spend on RA's than the ranger won't suddenly become a better ranged fighter than the ranger. Neither should any amount of RA's allow the opposite to happen.

------------
"You went into a situation with a questionable advantage (Landing the perf)"
------------

Questionable advantage, eh? Lol... Ok.

Let me state it this way: An archer who gets perfed has no business winning the fight. The only thing that allowed him to win was IP.

IP allowed a class to win a fight he has no business winning. Does that sound familiar?

Yes! That was exactly the logic that lead to assassins losing IP:evil

Caowyth
Registered User
Posts: 4394
(4/2/04 12:08 pm)
Reply

Re: re
Quote:
Neither should any amount of RA's allow the opposite to happen.


Again, you're functioning on a false assumption. That a Ranger should be a weaker melee fighter than an assassin.

Rangers have the option of being strong at bows, or taking a different route and specing high in blades/pierce and celtic dual. A Ranger that specs high in melee skills will give an assassin a run for their money. Heck, watch one of Quivna's videos sometime.

Also, Rangers wear better armor than assassins.

That, coupled with the ability to spend as much as 60 more points than you on RA's (Which for Rangers includes IP), means that your opponent could purchase a much wider variety of RA's, which WILL impact your ability to win. It's definitely not irrelevant, with the number of melee impacting abilities available for purchase.

It seems your biggest beef is with Ignore Pain. You should be happy with the proposed RA change then, because it will cost a Ranger 30 points just to get back 20% fewer hit points.

And I say 'Questionable advantage' because you were going up against a RR10 Ranger, who obviously knew how to play their class, and at RR10 you can guarantee that they have Ignore Pain. You weren't going to drop her in one shot, she saved her purge for the Dragonfang, she IP'd at the right time, was equipped for taking on stealthers, was fully buffed, her skills were at least +6 better than yours due to RR...

Obviously you're upset about this, but you went up against a huge disadvantage, and you're complaining about it afterwards. You think you should have won that fight, when in reality you needed to get lucky.

Geflin
Registered User
Posts: 149
(4/2/04 1:57 pm)
Reply

Re: re
Interesting thread, with that being said this comes down to one thing Realm Rank. If you had both been RR4 or RR10 than an assassin landing a perf should almost be an auto win. Rangers have the potential to be excellent in melee and with +20 to skill vs. your +14 that is a big advantage.

I’ve always been bothered by the armor difference leather/studded and who gets what. It seems to me the assassin who focuses on melee would have the better armor and the Archer who uses range and speed leather but that’s not the case.

Heat based LW are completely stupid vs Leather no other group of people have to put up with a 15% penalty. It’s punitive and put there on purpose to screw stealthers.

It does seem odd that archers got to keep IP while assassins lost the ability so you can image my happiness at seeing it nerfed a bit.

Geflin

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 682
(4/2/04 3:56 pm)
Reply

re
---------------
"Again, you're functioning on a false assumption. That a Ranger should be a weaker melee fighter than an assassin."
---------------

Not exactly. My claim is broader than that. It is that the sum of ranged combat and close combat abilities should be the same for the ranger and the assassin(and not limited to those two classes either).

As long as a ranger focuses on melee combat so much that it weakens his ranged attack capability to the point where it will be as weak as mine, then i have no problem with him having melee damage output similar to mine.

However if his ranged damage output is several times higher than mine, and despite of that his melee damage is still very close, or even superior to mine, then that i see as a problem indeed.

Llava
Registered User
Posts: 451
(4/2/04 4:06 pm)
Reply

Re: re
Even though the ranger in question likely spent a lot of realm ability points to increase melee ability?

Fact of the matter is that this option isn't open to assassins, and it won't be. Assassins are to ranged combat as casters are to melee combat- they can do it, but it's not a good idea, and RAs won't be helping.

Archers, however, have the ability to stand in between those two extremes.

Now, if you two were on equal ground and the ranger in question had approximately equal melee on top of superior range, then you'd have a case. Unfortunately, at realm rank 10 this ranger has had a lot of opportunity to buy abilities that make up for weaker hand to hand combat. Ignore Pain. Avoid Pain. Dualist's Reflexes. Mastery of Pain. Dodger. Who knows what else?

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 683
(4/2/04 4:22 pm)
Reply

re
--------------
"Unfortunately, at realm rank 10 this ranger has had a lot of opportunity to buy abilities that make up for weaker hand to hand combat. Ignore Pain. Avoid Pain. Dualist's Reflexes. Mastery of Pain. Dodger. Who knows what else?"
--------------

Ah. But, you see, this is exactly what i am disputing.

Why does a RR10 ranger have the option to buy abilities to equal an assassin in melee, but a RR10 assassin does not have the option to buy abilities that would make him equal to the ranger in ranged combat?

This should be adressed IMO. Either by allowing the inf to up his ranged combat abilities at high RR to match those of a ranger, or cutting down on the melee abilities of a high RR ranger. Otherwise, there will be an imballance.

The easiest way is simply to remove IP from archers. There is a nice precedent for that kind of solution, too :p

zarlaan
Registered User
Posts: 164
(4/2/04 5:46 pm)
Reply

.
Speaking as a rr10 assassin who goes up against Xeneyl a rr10 elf ranger quite often. I must say the damage he does in toe to toe melee is sickening. Many times when he has ts'ed he will not even use a bow but simply melee them down. His bow damage too is usualy 350-450 range give or take a few. He is blade spec don't recall how high, but it's high enough that he's doing on par to more damage then me melee and bow doing 350+ damage.

I wish i had the logs but i've reformated my HD so will need to make some more. Can prove that rangers CAN and do out melee a rr10 shadowblade even after they have been perfed.



Ayron Erebus
<Fate> Iseult
50 Shadowblade

Llava
Registered User
Posts: 452
(4/2/04 9:17 pm)
Reply

Re: .
"Why does a RR10 ranger have the option to buy abilities to equal an assassin in melee, but a RR10 assassin does not have the option to buy abilities that would make him equal to the ranger in ranged combat?"

I covered that. Because Archers are supposed to operate as hybrids between the ranged and melee systems. Casters are to melee combat as assassins are to ranged combat. Casters can't buy RAs to improve their melee. We can't buy RAs to improve our range.

If you were RR10 against an RR10 Ranger, likely you'd have won that fight by a pretty decent margin because his melee ability is lessened by his ranged ability- but not totally negated. You, however, as a melee specialist should be able to overcome that lessened melee ability when you're on equal footing. When you're not on equal footing, their melee may very well be about the same as yours.

While I am of the opinion that pretty much all archers are an over-whined sort, I don't think they're due for a nerf. And I don't agree with the method with which you're trying to prove your point.

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 684
(4/3/04 12:00 am)
Reply

re
------------
"If you were RR10 against an RR10 Ranger, likely you'd have won that fight by a pretty decent margin"
------------

I would not. Its a simple math. If i can barely win a pure melee fight now, within one swing of dying(if he does not IP), then at RR10 i would need my damage output doubled to be able to chew through his hitpoints twice.

And there is nothing i could buy with RA's that would increase my damage output by 100%.

If there was, then you bet it would get nerfed before you can say 'ouch', because the melee damage output of an infiltrator already is very high, and allowing the inf to double it at high RR would cause an uprising with every other class out there.

-------------
"Because Archers are supposed to operate as hybrids between the ranged and melee systems."
-------------

Not a good enough reason. It has been stated before that archers are supposed to do majority of their damage at range, and then use their melee to finish off the opponent after he reaches the archer.

If the archer can use melee exclusively, then he is doing something he is not supposed to be able to according to the design of the class.

This is very similar to what high RR assassins were doing: using their straight melee attacks, ignoring critical strikes, and still being able to outmelee tanks, against the design of the class which assumes we HAVE to use CS. And you know where that imbalance lead - to the removal of IP from assassins.

I simply ask to the same logic to be applied here.

Llava
Registered User
Posts: 454
(4/3/04 1:14 am)
Reply

Re: re
You wouldn't need your damage output increased by 100% if your defensive skills continued to increase.

Let's consider a few things here.

If you were RR10 you'd have:
16.5 effective DPS, as opposed to 16.2
An additional +6 to your dual wield, critical strike and weapon skill
More points to move from envenom/stealth to a corresponding melee skill, in your case either Dual Wield or Critical Strike (as you already have 50 in Thrust from the log), resulting in more damage output
Last I had heard, your ability to avoid someone's attacks was better if your weaponskill was higher than theirs. Is that still the common belief? If so- you'd have evaded more with that.
You'd have an additional 12 Armor Factor. A drop in the bucket.

Then, after all that, you'd have the actual RAs that you bought. Mastery of Pain. Dodger. Dualist's Reflexes. Whatever you picked up.

I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination at all to say that you would stand a very realistic chance of beating this Ranger in melee combat on equal footing.

As a player who's played an assassin and not an archer, I'd be inclined to agree that archers shouldn't have Ignore Pain. However, I say that knowing that I've never played an archer, and that a great many of them attribute their ability to solo solely to Ignore Pain. So, given a little experience on the opposing side, I would possibly change my opinion.

But from what you showed us, the Ranger in question used two powerful timered RAs (Avoid Pain, quite possibly level 3, and Ignore Pain). I did skim the log so correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't see you use any active RAs. I'm not willing to say that's a fight you should've won. It was heavily stacked against you. I'd go so far as to say that if the player on the other end was skilled, nearly any class could win this fight, given that they had the same advantage as your adversary in this log. Maybe not a cleric.

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 685
(4/3/04 1:43 am)
Reply

Re: re
The ranger was at about 80% life when i died. So that is the minimum what i would have to do in extra damage to possibly arrive at a different result than in my log.

All the factors you listed will never add up to that kind of damage. At 110 average mainhand hit, even with MOP5, which is the biggest factor you listed, my mainhand damage will increase only by 110*0.25*0.35 = 9.6 damage per swing on average. That is nowhere near the amount neccessary to beat down 80% of a fully buffed ranger's HP in the ~14 seconds from him hitting IP to me dying.

As a side note, i used a rain of annihilation III in that fight, which added 15 extra damage to my swings - quite more than MOP5 would, interesting, eh? :)

But in short, if he IP's, he wins, regardless of RR.


--------------
" But from what you showed us, the Ranger in question used two powerful timered RAs (Avoid Pain, quite possibly level 3, and Ignore Pain).I'm not willing to say that's a fight you should've won."
--------------

Hey, i agree there! There was no chance in hell i could have won against his IP.

But that it the whole point im trying to make, that he has no business having IP, because it allows him winning a fight he should not be able to!

Edited by: ShareeFromTristan at: 4/3/04 2:06 am
Braincandy999 
Registered User
Posts: 427
(4/3/04 5:58 am)
Reply

Re: re
then why does the subject and the header of your logs refer to the desperate ranger ability?

Your post is about archers have IP and you don't mention anything about that until the 3rd or 4th reply?

Unless you are RR10 you can't say that what you get at RR10 and the way all those things interact with everything else would or wouldn't help your damage/damage mitigation enough for you to have won that fight.

I'm all about the "Assassins First" campaign, but RR4 vs RR10? Can you beat a lvl 50 Archer when you're lvl 47, because the analogy is similar?

Tlarian
Posts: 41
(4/3/04 6:13 am)
Reply

Re: re
The whole "class x should always be able to kill class y given situation z", or "paper-sissor-rock" thingy, got broken a long time ago. Especially where it benefited assassins.

Me, I could care less about dying to a high-RR archer - it's dying to damn near any caster who has just enough RSPs for MoC and Purge (after I've PA'd them for 400 or so) that drives me nuts.

As much as some of the other stuff in the RA review worrries me, I'm REALLY looking forward to the MoC nerf.

Tlarian
50 NS Iseult

Edited by: Tlarian at: 4/3/04 6:14 am
Llava
Registered User
Posts: 455
(4/3/04 2:18 pm)
Reply

Re: re
Sharee, your arguement in this case is really weak.

Like I said already- nearly any class with an advantage as big as this ranger's would be able to win this fight.

I'd be more inclined to take your position seriously if you ran some duels with a Ranger of roughly equal RR who had Ignore Pain. Unfortunately, because Mythic doesn't have a way to artificially reset RA timers on Pendragon, I realize that's a pain.

Brandyn Aquilius
Registered User
Posts: 1661
(4/3/04 9:27 pm)
Reply

Re: re
I remember killing equal RR Rangers quite easily in pure melee. Of course, I had two strength relics and one nasty-arse level 50 style. Try using IP in the middle of a 9 second stun CHUMP! :evil

Seriously though, Sharee. You might be right and you might be wrong, but that's a horrible example to use to try to prove your case. It makes your conclusion lack credibility. I mean...RR10?? Come on now.

Taichi 50 Infiltrator (sold)
Aurra 48 Shadowblade - Igraine (permanent stasis)
Lascidel 50 Nightshade - Tristan (sold)

ShareeFromTristan
Registered User
Posts: 686
(4/3/04 11:16 pm)
Reply

Re: re
-------------
"then why does the subject and the header of your logs refer to the desperate ranger ability?
-------------

I chose the subject because of the irony i see in the naming of the ranger unique RA.

--------------
"I mean...RR10?? Come on now."
--------------

IP is available to a ranger at RR 3L3. It was the only factor that allowed him to win. If he was 3L3, he would not have AP, but look at the log - he did not need it to win, as he was at ~80% life when i died. He only needed IP.

When a high RR assassin not using a CS meleed down a tank because of IP, it was deemed inappropriate and IP was stripped.

This is no different from a high RR archer not using a bow and meleeing down an assassin. I do not care what his RR is, he should have to do most of his damage at range, as that is the primary attack of an archer.

If there is a RA that allows the archer to overstep the bounds of the class design, then the archer has no business having access to that RA. RR10 or not.

Edited by: ShareeFromTristan at: 4/3/04 11:21 pm
Llava
Registered User
Posts: 457
(4/4/04 11:34 am)
Reply

Re: re
What I'm saying is that nearly any character who's an RR10 fighting an RR4 assassin, even after being PAed, could win.

Hell. I'd bet that an RR10 assassin being TSed and shot from range by an archer can still close to melee in time to win the fight.

And yes, the analogy does work. Melee isn't ideal for archers, but it's not anathema. Straight up melee isn't ideal for assassins, but we can handle it.

Like I said, if you want to make this claim you're going to need better data. If we're not willing to listen to this, do you think Mythic will?

To be quite frank, you'd be laughed out of the vault for posting this. I can hear it now- "An RR4 lost to an RR10!? NERF!"

Sharee, you know better than this.

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