Registered User
Posts: 1663
(4/4/04 3:40 pm) Reply
Re: re
"IP is available to a ranger at RR 3L3. It was the only factor that allowed him to win."
A 3L3 Ranger would have probably gotten waxed. Then again, maybe not.
You're still using Sting. You managed to get a Dragonfang in but Creeping Death nullified the stun. Since you used Creeping Death, where is Stunning Stab? Why are you trying to follow up Sting (Sting??) with Dragonfang? If you go through perf chain, why aren't you backing up Sting with Hamstring?
I see you finally got yourself some buffs. Are they bot-strength buffs?
You saying IP was the only reason he won seems questionable at best.
The Ranger is RR10 and you are RR4.
You are using questionable primary and backup styles, which makes me question your tactics.
Your fail to use the Stunning Stab style, which makes me question your spec.
You've always shunned buffbots, which makes me question your buffs.
I question your weapon selection, which, from what I remember was built around using extrememly fast weapons in both hands (which might have been okay when you were unbuffed, but with buffs maybe not so good).
You used Rain of Annihilation, which makes me question your RAs.
Because so much of these center on YOUR choices, it makes me question your skill with your character.
Maybe I'm right on some of those, maybe I'm way off base on them. But the questions are there for probably more people than just me. Your conclusion seems based on a lot of suspect evidence. Thus, your conclusion itself is suspect. Like I said before, you might be right, you might be wrong, but the circumstances don't help your conclusion in the least.
Re: re
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"A 3L3 Ranger would have probably gotten waxed. Then again, maybe not."
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With IP, he would win. Please don't take this as a case built on ONE log, against ONE ranger. I wouldn't bother complaining if i only lost to a ranger once. It is common occurence. If IP is up, he wins more often than not regardless of whether he shoots me first or not.
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"You're still using Sting. You managed to get a Dragonfang in but Creeping Death nullified the stun. Since you used Creeping Death, where is Stunning Stab?"
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Normally i don't discuss things like this because it only diverts attention from the problem. But since it is you who is asking:
I was in the shadeform, as was he. I did not believe the PA would land, because i only had a split second to line it up against a nearly-invisible target that was turning as i attacked. Got lucky there.
Since due to the shadeform animations there is no visual confirmation of styles landed, and the chat window scrolls too fast, i decided not to risk using a 3rd style in chain i wasnt sure landed, and instead played it safe with an anytime style.
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"I see you finally got yourself some buffs. Are they bot-strength buffs?"
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Yes. TOA-enhanced buffbot. I decided i suffered for long enough, and one of the reasons i refused to get one is no longer relevant(i felt bad killing unbuffed players, but those are almost extinct by now).
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"You saying IP was the only reason he won seems questionable at best."
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It is not questionable, and in fact is simple to prove:
1) Look at the amount of damage i did before dying. You will see that is more than a lurikeen ranger can have. He used IP when at ~10% life. I was at about 60-70% at that time.
2) I can show you a log of a fight where he did not use IP. He didn't stand a chance to recover from a CS chain, and dropped like a sack of rocks, RR10 or not.
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"You are using questionable primary and backup styles, which makes me question your tactics."
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Primary style: Sting. Reason: uses 1/3 less endurance than garrote, and the damage done is only about 8 points less(at cap, so even less than 8 in non-capped swings). When facing an IP class, endurance conservation is cruical. You might have noticed i had to use an end potion midfight even with a medium end drain style.
Secondary style: DF. Reason: Damage of hamstring is not much higher than that of DF because my thrust is higher spec, and using it i would potentially give up the opportunity to stun(remember i had no feedback as to whether CD landed or not)
This might change after next patch when the shadeform graphics changes and you might actually be able to see the enemies(and yours) actions, and react accordingly.
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"You used Rain of Annihilation, which makes me question your RAs."
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Come on now. Don't let the common misconception that RoA is a bad RA cloud your judgement. I have shown that ROA3 gives more of a(short term) benefit than MOP(about twice the DPS added for similar cost, at the price of being on a timer). Average 15 damage per hand per swing as opposed to the ~8 damage per swing MOP would give on average.
As an added benefit, ROA damage goes straight through the SoM ablative.
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"Because so much of these center on YOUR choices, it makes me question your skill with your character."
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I landed a critical strike on a ranged class that did not fire a single arrow. That's all the character skill that should have been neccessary, and should have ended the fight right there. Anything beyond that is fluff.
The only thing i am willing to accept that would make the ranged class win under these circumstances is exterme luck, like evading everything i throw at him, but that was not the case. He didnt win because of luck, he won because he pressed his IP button.
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"Your conclusion seems based on a lot of suspect evidence."
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My conclusions are based on a log that anyone can read on top of this thread. There is nothing suspect to it - it clearly shows a ranger who did not fire a single arrow beat an assassin who did land his critical strike.
Since i see a parallel in this behavior to what assassins used to be able to do before removal of IP from them, i strongly object to rangers having access to IP, and have expressed that in a feedback letter to Mythic.
Edited by: ShareeFromTristan at: 4/5/04 4:13 am
:P
If an archer gets the jump on an assasin at range for one reason or another they should be dead with no questions asked? To bad thats not the case. Its worse now since TOA.. RA's should be dominant abilities giving the higher RR a distinct advantage over lower RR opponents. Should infs be given ablities just so they can make up for what they lack in range? NOPE.. You blow stealth at range and as an assasin should be road kill if targeted by an archer.
With that being said and since i play both sides of the fence both RR5+ i can say if you land a PA chain virtually no class with maybe the acception of a heavy tank should be able to survive it. Thats not a balance issue its a screw up on how damage is for our CS line.
The only reason Archers were given IP is so they could maybe win one vs an assassin every 30 minutes and even IP is no guarentee. I think IP should not be in this game. I dont think any class should have access to a full in combat insta heal that isn't offered by a healing class.
Rangers that spec in melee are as tough as any assasin for that matter with full buffs.
Anyways this is not a balance issue its a game mechanics issue i think you should have a percentage of a chance to one shot classes but until they raise the damage scale to near double on the PA line then like now the majority specs for melee instead of CS.
Mythic said they wanted assasins to rely on Critical Strike kill from stealth but they havent given them the ability yet unless all they want us to kill is casters.
Re: :P
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"If an archer gets the jump on an assasin at range for one reason or another they should be dead with no questions asked? To bad thats not the case."
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Ah. But what if the archer would land his crit shot on the assassin, like i did in the log?
Most of the logs of archers showing how he lost to an assassin when starting fight at range include lots of arrow misses and evades, and i don't think i ever saw one where the archer landed a critical shot first.
That's a difference. Would i have missed my PA in that fight, you bet i would not have started this thread.
Other than that, i agree with your post.
Caowyth Registered User
Posts: 4397
(4/5/04 7:35 am) Reply
Re: :P
Quote:Ah. But what if the archer would land his crit shot on the assassin, like i did in the log?
What are the chances of you evading the crit shot? What are the chances of the archer evading your Perf?
Re: :P
Probably just about the same chance really, because both have the problem of people not standing still. An assassin will only evade if it is in front of them, they don't get a 360 evade like BM, Merc and Gerbils. The same is true for an archer, they can just as easily prevent a PA by turning around periodically.
sentania Registered User
Posts: 127
(4/5/04 10:06 am) Reply
Re: :P
But you can PA a moving target, sure you they change directions it's a monkey wrench, but you don't have to wait for a target to stop moving.
Registered User
Posts: 159
(4/5/04 10:15 am) Reply
Re: :P
Stealthers, from what I've noticed, tend to stand around waiting more than any non-stealther out by himself. The stealth is giving us a false since of security with TS and SL out there, or maybe it's just me, but it's even more apparent with some stealther groups that I've been with. If you want to stay together, you tend to bunch up on GT points or special waypoints. Standing targets to enemy TS.
Edited by: Ayra Underfoot at: 4/5/04 10:16 am
Caowyth Registered User
Posts: 4400
(4/5/04 10:17 am) Reply
Re: :P
PA'ing a moving target isn't easy.
I'm just stating that the evade rate for an assassin is much higher than the evade rate for an archer.
Also, the evade for an archer is halved on a perf from the dual wielding assassin. I don't believe the assassin suffers the same penalty on bowfire.
Registered User
Posts: 160
(4/5/04 10:26 am) Reply
Re: :P
I dont think I've ever seen anyone, pve or pvp, that has blocked, evaded or parried one of my PAs. I don't think it's possible; don't we get a crazy to-hit bonus on that style? The only thing I've seen block a good position PA is the SM intercept and the rare lost PA bug. I believe Bodyguard as well, but I haven't seen that happen yet.
I think just Block and Parry get halved vs. dual wielding. I could easily be wrong there though.
Edited by: Ayra Underfoot at: 4/5/04 10:28 am
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"I'm just stating that the evade rate for an assassin is much higher than the evade rate for an archer."
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The archer cant evade a PA(it is actually impossible) - but then, he does not have to evade it for the PA to fail. We all know very well how tricky landing a PA is.
I agree with Ayra that the difficulties of landing a PA and landing a crit shot are similar. One suffers from the neccesity of the target standing still - but the target can be standing still anywhere in a wide radius. The other doesnt require the target to stand still, but can only be performed on a target that decides to run through you, with little room for adjustment on your part.
Both chances heavily depend on the behavior of the target which you have no way to influence, be you archer or assassin.
Edited by: ShareeFromTristan at: 4/5/04 10:35 am
sentania Registered User
Posts: 128
(4/5/04 11:10 am) Reply
Re: :P
Thing about PA though is, if you know you are going to miss you can swing around for BS II, with crit shot it's line it up and pray that the target doesn't change his mind in the next 3 seconds.
Registered User
Posts: 161
(4/5/04 11:20 am) Reply
Re: :P
Quote:BS II, with crit shot it's line it up and pray that the target doesn't change his mind in the next 3 seconds.
Trust me on this one, a regular arrow shot is still a powerfull hit where BSII is a mildy higher damage style with a 3 sec stun. This kills DB for shades, and would hamper a Infil's DF death chain. I would be surprised if any Infil even had it on their hotbar. I keep it handy on mine, but I find that I use it only in zerg fights. The damage bonus on BSII needs a bump. The CS styles are all messed up, we should of gotten a 3rd followup on BSII chain, not BSI. I'm a little of course now, sorry
Caowyth Registered User
Posts: 4401
(4/5/04 11:25 am) Reply
Re: :P
Quote:The damage bonus on BSII needs a bump. The CS styles are all messed up, we should of gotten a 3rd followup on BSII chain, not BSI.
Now this is something we can all agree on!
sentania Registered User
Posts: 129
(4/5/04 12:13 pm) Reply
Re: :P
I wasn't saying it was the best option, I was just saying it's there
Llava Registered User
Posts: 461
(4/5/04 6:12 pm) Reply
Re: :P
You've neglected to address my statement that any class with a similar advantage would have won this fight, with IP if their class has access to and relies on it (such as the ranger), or without if they don't (such as a caster).
I'm willing to bet a number of RR10 casters could've won this fight by burning one or two active RAs. No IP necessary.
I'm also inclined to agree that Brandyn's hypothesis that a 3L3 ranger would've been shredded is most likely accurate.
You can say "Don't assume this is based off of one fight", but what you've shown us as evidence is indeed one fight. If you want to sway opinions, we'll need more than that.
Your dogged persistance in repeating that he won the fight because of Ignore Pain is irrelevant. If it was a different class, it would've been a different RA that won the fight.
And in the long run, the entire point is moot as Frontiers is around the corner and I /strongly/ doubt Mythic will be making any changes to an old system they're getting ready to throw out anyways. I believe Fight Club referred to that as "polishing the brass on the Titanic".
Registered User
Posts: 1668
(4/5/04 6:34 pm) Reply
Re: re
Hm. Interesting Shar.
For me, Sting was definitely inferior to Garrote/AH combo. I did a bit of testing after your own endorsement of the style long ago, but it became clear very quickly that the CS styles were much better even considering the endurance drain. Better overall, by a bit. Better for my stragegy by a lot. But my spec was 50Thrust/50CS. I certainly burned through endurance, though.
The shadeform thing makes a lot of sense. If you can't tell whether or not you stunned your opponent on the CD, I see why you'd use DF. That would have made a huge difference for me. I relied on the visual feedback to see when I landed styles. With shadeform around, maybe you should ask for an optional audible cue for successful styles. Or even a cheesy cartoon graphic that said the name of your successful style. "Dragonfang!" LOL. Cheesy, but kinda cool in an arcade game kinda way. Okay, not really, but you get the point.
I only remember losing one 1-v-1 melee fight to a Ranger with Taichi and Aurra (while buffed). That Ranger was buffed to the hilts (as was I) and was specced for almost pure melee, and just plain ol' beat my arse. He got lucky I didn't get my DF in (fat fingering). The thing was, with Taichi, if I landed the PA chain. Most targets were dead before they came out of CD's stun, or one shot after they came out of it. What IS your spec?
Dragonfang doesn't hit as hard as Hamstring and is WAY less effective than Leaper. Leaper was the most consistently damaging style I had except for PA. That was even true on Aurra who was 44CS.
Maybe RoA3 isn't bad, but RoA1 was damn near useless, and RoA2 wasn't much better. MoP was far, far more effective in my estimation. with MoP3, I got a ridiculous amount of crits, and those crits were ususally coming on my most used styles. Those were the CS styles, and a crit on PA, CD, Hammy, or Leaper is just nasty, nasty, nasty. Again this was true with 44CS and even more so with 50CS. I don't think I could live without MoP.
So okay. You landed your PA and CD on a ranged class and still lost. I can see why that bothers you. It would bother me too. I never really had that problem, though. When I landed PA, people died.
You know, if you'd have said that Rangers don't really need much help people probably would have said, "yeah, that's true." I think it's the context you put it in. A RR3 vs a RR10 is one of those things that makes people skeptical right off the bat. That was my point. You might be right, but the situation you chose to illustrate your conclusion is one of those things like what I remember so vividly from before:
"Dude some Infiltrator was outdamaging my NS by three times as much!"
"Did he have the relics?"
"Yeah."
/em rolls eyes
It's just kind of expected. You're a RR3 and got beat by a RR10. The initial reaction, no matter what circumstances the beating occured in, is usually, "duh!"
Re: re
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"It's just kind of expected. You're a RR3 and got beat by a RR10. The initial reaction, no matter what circumstances the beating occured in, is usually, "duh!" "
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Yes i know people tend to react that way. They tend to overestimate the effect of RR and automatically dismiss any ballance issues with 'OMG he was a HIGHER REALM RANK!' like it would make him invincible or something.
Like i said, i have a log attacking exactly this same RR10 ranger on the next day while his IP was down, and it took a few more hits after the initial CS chain and he was dead, no questions asked.
Oh, and i'm 4L3
P.S. My spec is 50 thrust, 40 CS, 37 stealth, 37 envenom, 20 DW. Have two respec stones vaulted, but holding for the style review and frontiers before burning them.
Okay, not really, but you get the point. 
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