Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Anybody had their session go horribly wrong because of a snowball of bad decisions on the players part? Even when your being nice as a GM?
The group I was GMing this weekend almost put an end to the campaign.
Im running a Shadowrun background D20 Modern campaign. The group consisted of 6 people. Two Mages, An Ex-Cop, A Mafia Made Man, A Modern Samurai, and a Bugbear Fighter. Average party level was high 6th, one of the mages was 8th.
The mission the johnston put them on was to slay a dragon. It was only juvenile (about 20 years old) but it was still a dragon. They are given 5 days to complete it before the parents of the dragon return and increase the difficulty to more than they can handle.
Well the dragon lives in a mansion in "Dragon Valley". Its a small valley that has 7 mansions in it all belonging to different dragons. There is only one access road to the valley and you have to drive around three sides of it coming down the steep hilly region to get down to the floor of the valley. On the good side however there is a large park in the center of the valley that is a tourist attraction, people coming to see all the dragons coming and going home. They also see one of the lots is purely a security building, right next to the enterance road as well.
Side Note: I had already planned that they would not have to kill the dragon at home, he has been going out trying to start a fixer business. That is why he is targeted. But the players dont know this yet, they had to do some groundwork to find it out.
Anyway, The players decide to do some survalliance of the house so four of them take off. The other two, the high level mage and the ex-cop, stay behind to take care of some other things.
The four go through abit of planning and end up leaving the mafia man on the side of the valley with a sniper rifle to scope things from high ground. The others head down and hang out at the park, eventually they see a semi pull into the valley and stop in front of a mansion. A forklift, driven by one of the armed security guards, comes from the security center and starts bringing pallets into the garages of the mansion.
Here is where bad decision one comes in. They are on survellance and the gnome mage decides "Im going to turn invisible and sneak into the semi-trailer." No problem I think, he's going to see what they eat or something. Nope, He decides to hitch a ride atop the pallet into the garage of the mansion. Well the party is shocked and start telling eachother, they even call the two outside the valley.
Heres bad decision number two. The high level mage outside the valley decides to CALL the misguided gnome. Of course he's hiding in the rafters of the garage as the employees split up the pallet when his phone goes off, shortly afterwords he ends up falling from the rafters onto the floor of the garage. Security is called and they track him down using technology that dosn't use visual senses. Point a gun at him and tell him to "Become Visible and Surrender."
Bad Decision 3: He casts Obscuring Mist and then Knocks the garage door to get out. He also did something to break his invisibility, I think he destroyed that scanner. I cant remember at the moment.
This one cant neccessarly be declared as a bad decision, but it didnt help matters. The mafioso sees the gnome come out of the garage in the fog with his thermographics. He sees that the guards waiting outside also saw him so he decides to snipe one of the guards... Wearing full security armor. Well, he dosnt kill the guard and the guards screws up his perception. He things the gnome shot at him and use of lethal force is granted. (They were using rubber bullets up until then) The guards outside also yelled for the gnome to get down.
Another move from the gnome, he runs for the gate. Outside the other players see a citymaster come out of the security center and block the gate on the outside, its armaments spinning to cover the gate.
Next bad decision (At least this one was in character however): The other two party members are at the semi two mansions down talking with the driver who is waiting on the forklift. I noted several times that it was inside the mansion grounds with the gate closed (This is important later). The modern samurai deciding that he isnt going to leave a party member behind gets into the semi and starts turning it around on a small road, he said he didnt mind that he had to drive through the park to get turned around. Then he was going to ram the Citymaster with the semi.
Meanwhile the gnome is approaching the gate invisiblly, he suddnly gets coated in paint designed to make invisible things visible for the mundane folks. He is once again given the oppertunity to surrender, of course he instead starts running for a pond in the front yard. Security at the front of the house has converged on the gnome BTW.
The semi gets turned around and heading towards the citymaster, but it dosnt get far as they open up on it with the 20mm autocannon. The modern samurai then pulls an impressive maneuver. He runs up the front of the citymaster, rolls across the top avoiding the turrent, and jumps onto the 20' stone wall.... In time to see the gnome gunned down.
Instead of running or surrendering he decides to run for the gnome, who is currently being handuffed and tended to by two guards with two more covering them. He gets gunned down.
Meanwhile the bugbear is actually being intelligent. He is waiting in line to leave the valley. The guards had put up a spike strip across the road and have stopped all traffic going in or out. Yet he is staying patient. Until now. Something sparks in his head and he pulls his lexus out of line and up to the gate of the house with the forklift at it. The guards come up to him and politely tell him to return to his car for his own safety and that things will return to order shortly. He heads back to his car and I think 'good, only two captured'.. Then he says "I ram the security gate." ?!?! I asked make sure and of course he goes ahead and does it anyway. So I go ahead and let him pull a stunt and double accelerate so that he does some decient damage. He basiclly only got his car half way though (I was being really nice) so he climbed out the windshield. It of course destroy's his car and using D20 Modern rules it will blow up in 1d6 rounds (4). He's given the oppertunity to surrender by the guards there (Still loaded with rubber rounds, different house) He drops his smg and mocks surrender only so that he can get a surprise attack on one of them with his retractable cyber claws. Eventually the car blows killing the two guards and knocking him away.
So he charges for the forklift ... ?!?! ... Of course security there has been alerted and given lethal force permission. On the course to the forklift (about 3 rounds of movement) he kills a few more guards. Finally he's in the forklift and an argument at the speed of it ensues, he thinks the thing can hit 50 apperently. Anyway, the citymaster came to the gate because of the new problem. The bugbear's idea is to knock over the citymaster with the forklift anyway. (HOw he thought he would have enough time is beyond me.) On the way to the gate all of the guards open up with autofire at the forklift, of course disableing it in one round. But because things were going so bad for them already and he seemed adament that forklifts were loaded with racing engines, I told him that it bumped into the citymaster before it finally stopped. (Remember the blowing up rule... he didnt)
He takes cover against it and starts shooting at the guards and then FINALLY realizes he has no way out of the valley. So he decides to run for the back wall. About 1/2 mile away, past the house, the guards take him down obviously.
Ok, the 'sniper' sees all of this happen and still decides to head down to get into the mansion?!?!? ON SURVELLANCE STILL!!! Each of the group had also heard that a gunship was on the way for air support. He STILL went.
So Im nice and let him get up and over the 20' stone wall without to much trouble, tell him once again about the nice huge backyard with no trees or anything where the dragon was flying around earler and guard posts positioned around the wall. "I sneak across it." I remind him once again that theres nothing to sneak behind and it would be just as good to walk across it in full view of the guards. "I do that then" ?!?!?!?
Gunship comes around the house, points its minigun at him, and tells him to surrender and get on the ground over the loudspeaker. "I shoot at it with my SMG." ?!?!?!? Ok mafioso down.
The other two party members are watching it all on the news. And the sad thing, one of those at the begining of the session told me that they were not entirelly happy with their character and was thinking of just making a new one. The other one, the ex-cop, is only there once in about 3 gaming sessions. So basiclly the whole party is potentially out of action.
ARG!!!!
That night the remaining two find out about the "Fixer Work" the dragon is doing. Rig his car with a massive car bomb. (8 lbs of C7 Explosive) And after the bomb, a few fireballs (Silver Dragons are vulnerable to fire), several bursts with automatic weapons, they finally take him down in a fairly close fight.
For abit of campaign salvage I played out abit of the meeting with lawyers and such.
Gnome, (Thanks to the mafia man getting himself caught) only ended up with a Tresspassing and Evading Arrest charge. First offense so just fined.
Modern Samurai: Auto Theft, Property Destruction, Tresspassing, Assault. (He did swing at one of the guards before he was dropped)
Made Man: Tresspassing, Assault, Property Damage (The Gunship), and Weapon Possession. (The mob got him out of it but his Don was not happy at all)
Bugbear is screwed: Tresspassing, Massive property damage, 15 counts of murder, and 5 counts of assult.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
You know though, don't be mad about it. At key points in that, the characters had an out they could have used, if they'd played intelligently, and not under-estimated the opposition. I find funny that the bugbear, who has the closest to getting out, got screwed the hardest.
I'm struck though by how, if I had been playing this, I would have found it a great adventure. Sure, everyone died pretty much, but it had action, suspense, and all that jazz.
I'd be happy that you downed a party without use of excessive force. PCs never want to go quietly(as this shows), so it's nice you didn't just roll up on them with a bunch of fully loaded APC and starting running your autocannons.
"I see a dark sail, on the horizon. Set under a black cloud, that hides the sun. Bring me my broadsword, and clear understanding. Bring me my cross of gold, as a talisman. Bless with a hard heart, those who surround me. Bless the women and children, who firm our hands. Put our backs to the north wind, hold fast by the river. Sweet memories to drive us on, of the motherland. Bring me my broadsword."-Jethro Tull
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Not mad at all, just thought it was rather humerous. After the session all the players did say that it was still a great adventure and that they all enjoyed it. And all the points I listed, they had mentioned themselves as well as bad decisions. (Except for the bugbear, he seemd to think that it was still entirelly possible to sneak up on a citymaster with a forklift and flip it over with the lift.)
As far as the bugbear getting screwed the hardest. This play has a quote that we repeat often. "THATS IT IM KILLING THE WHOLE DAMN TOWN!! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!!!" The thing that makes it most humerous is that this is because the guards wouldent let him into town with his greatsword, they wanted to keep it at the guardshack. He tried to fight anyway. Its a part of the "Players" personality so it rubs off on all his characters. He was actually proud that he got 15 of them and was dissappointed that the others that didnt die didnt count towards it. And he's still complaining that his Lexus should have knocked that security gate clean away. Am I wrong here or would a barred security gate (made up of bars so it can be seen through and still look nice) designed to stop a charging APC have no problem stopping a Lexus?
The APC (Which is basiclly what a security citymaster is a civilian version of) was actually armed with both a water cannon and the AC. The water cannon was actually what they were going to hit the gnome with. The AC was for vehicles. Its security for a bunch of dragons after all, they expected anyone who's ballsy enough to pull an assault will have something that would take an AC to damage.
I just try to react how the NPC' would, I think thats one of the reasons why people like my shadowrun games and beg me to run on occasion. (Though that is probably only a minor part of the whole reason) Stupid me however cant seem to pull the same thing off in Fantasy campaigns for some reason. Annoy's the hell of me more than everyone else I think. A security team would try to Apprehend the suspects first and only respond based upon the resistance given. The Citymaster was primarally a show of force other than actual force to be used. "Oh Crap! THey have a citymasters, we give up!" (Not that I would expect PC's would actually do that mind you. )
All and all it worked out ok however. The bugbear will be out one adventure I had planned which I think I am going to make an NPC for him. Was thinking of including an NPC in it anyway. Then their next mission was a Jailbreak anyway. (Though they didnt know that) So Ill have it conviently occur that the person they are trying to jailbreak is the bugbears cellmate.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Depending on how fast he was going, he'd probably have problems with a chain link fence, let alone a heavy security gate.
It sounds like you have a player with a distorted sense of reality (50 MPH forklifts? These things run on propane or are electric half the time, plus they take a completely different mindset to steer properly).
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
He had orignally pulled up to the gate to talk to the guards. I let him back up about 20 feet (Traffic was on the other side of the road).
With the way the system worked he did something like 16d4 damage.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
But see, players that are too grounded in reality are no fun. You have to admire, nay, even respect, that fighting type who dashes out there and does something hopelessly misguided. It's fun, and when they make some spectacular dice roll that shakes things up, they get to feel like heroes.
Even if the amount of damage they take next round is enough to kill the whole party, twice. That's kinda heroic too. :P
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs."But see, players that are too grounded in reality are no fun."
That post reminds me of a particular gaming session with a "slightly inexperienced" gamer.
(character is alone, in a room off a hallway, watching a procession of evildoers go down the hall)
GM: The last one isn't walking, but seems to be floating a few inches above the ground. He's wearing long, black robes with gold trim and symbols that you don't understand. As he passes, the air feels slightly but distinctively cooler.
Char: I stab him with my dagger!!
I should point out, at this point, that this char was 0 level with 1 hit point.
That was the best gaming newbie we ever had, I tell you what!</hankhill>
Not to claim the status of a "real professional" in any one endeavor has been a small price to pay for the many benefits and pleasures of trespassing. ~Leo Lionni
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Actually they didnt make a Shadowrun D20.
I basiclly took D20 Modern book as the basis.
A dash of the Urban Arcane sourcebook.
Ultramodern Firearms for spice.
Orignally I used Digital Burn for matrix/cyber but it didnt cut it. So I got a new book called Cyber<something> that is a d20 clone of Cyberpunk. Had a much better cyberwire and matrix systems.
Other than that I just throw away the whole "Shadow" reference in the Urban Arcane and use the basic Shadowrun Storyline. Voila! Shadowrun d20 that the group can enjoy.
Of course the mages are no where near as powerful as in Shadowrun, magic items other than focuses exist, and theres a lot more races. Basiclly we like the setting and just went with a D20 system for it.
Personally I think its more restricting because of the level system but we are all having fun so thats all that matters.
Edited by: Urusai at: 1/22/04 7:53 am
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Yeah, see, rather then sell their rights and soul to WotC, FASA discontinued SR, and then the whole executive commitee committed seppeku in the board room.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
I have to admit Nenjin is right there. EVERYONE seems to be jumping on the D20 bandwagon. Its kind of sick actually, wheres the variety in gaming systems anymore.
Honestly, the primary reason I decided to try D20 Shadowrun because one of the players keeps on insisting on making Troll PhysAds and throwing every ounce of damage resistance he can into the character.
The he seems to shrug off everything that heads his way. Him: "Direct hit with a Tank shell.... I take a light wound."
Others: "Were dead from the blast radius effect."
Him: "I swing at the tank with my Dikoted Katana.... 45 Deadly+9 damage."
It was impossible to get any sort of challange into encounters without getting insane. And the guy is a Rules Lawyer: Masters Degree. And if you ... god forbid... change any rule for your campaign. He gets all pissy and ruins the session for everyone else. Either by doing stupid things like stealing a passing semi and driving it into the bank only to fight off all of lonestar because he cant be hurt, or by just arguing about the rule for the next 6 hours.
OH and yes I did kill that troll eventually, He pissed off the yak so I had them use tandom snipers to shoot him through his eyes while he sat waiting for a johnston that was actually a setup. (I.e. He didnt get any armor bonuses from his dermal armor or synthskin or worn armor.) Yes it was stupid but it was the only way I could kill him because of his "Amazing Rolling Ability" ("Yes I made 8 success at target number 25" ..grumble) He even brought that up in this adventure. "At least they didnt have snipers that shot me through my eyes"
And before you ask, yes this player is the GM that puts us in the insane positions like that trap I mentioned in a previous post. He can be quite impossible to game with on occasions.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Quote:The high level mage outside the valley decides to CALL the misguided gnome. Of course he's hiding in the rafters of the garage as the employees split up the pallet when his phone goes off...
What, they haven't heard of putting your phone on vibrate?
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
That was actually a comment, but everyone decided that he didnt currently have it on vibrate due to a previous roleplaying decision.
Matheren Registered User
Posts: 1837
(1/22/04 8:16 pm) Reply
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
I really hate the "Everyone has to be d20" trend too. it pissed me off with Seventh Sea and Legend of the Five Rings.
and guess who else just signed up for it? Glen Cook for his Black Company books world.
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
I imagine they're getting a fair amount of money for it. I think roleplaying as a market has just suffered the last few years, what with console and computer gaming becoming so enticing compared to using your imagination. All the gaming shops except for one in my town have closed, the two in omaha closed, one of which just condensed it's gaming stuff into the rest of the comic book shop.
I can't blame the companies for selling the rights of their games to D20, but it saddens me that a lot of those those good story writers, aritsts, and idea people are out of work, and what is left is being hadnled by, sorry, people of less talent. Across the board. It's a blanket statement, but I've seen it in every D20 book I've opened. Everything has that condensed....manufactured quality to it, at least compared to what the game/art/ect.. used to be.
Although to be fair, I think FASA actually tanked before D20 and WotC started gobbling up titles. They obviously haven't sold the rights to it yet. Xbox couldn't get the rights to BattleTech and Mechwarrior either.
edit
sp311|ng iz g00d Edited by: Nenjin at: 1/22/04 10:03 pm
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Hrm, either I don't understand d20, or you don't. The way I understand it is that the d20 system falls under the OGL - anyone can use the base mechanics without seeking express permission or paying for it.
I don't think people are 'selling the rights' to WOTC, I think people are recognizing that creative capital can be better used to design game worlds rather than recreate mechanics from scratch for every game. The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 represent the effect of playtesting and balancing on a scale that no other company could ever possibly do. I think people are also recognizing that by using the d20 system, new players are more likely to give their games a try because they won't need to learn an entire new ruleset to play. All they have to do is learn about the world, any world-specific features, and they're good to go.
I think d20 and OGL is an absolute godsend to gaming. Anyone with a creative streak can create their own game world, game supplements, or what-have-you without needing to ask permission of Hasbro's lawyers. Go over to ENworld and look at the quantity of sourcebooks and supplements for sale (both in print and PDF format) and I think that you'll have to agree that the breadth of the market has increased quite a bit with the OGL.
Now whether or not people are selling their intellectual rights to WOTC is a separate issue. However if I had to guess I'd say that there are likely more talented people employed (full or part time) making quality gaming products today than at any other time in gaming history.
That's something of a digression, however. The last thing we need is another debate on 2e v. 3e D&D
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Quote:The last thing we need is another debate on 2e v. 3e D&D
10-4 good buddy.
Nymm Registered User
Posts: 1462
(1/23/04 11:12 am) Reply
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
OGC/OGL is one of the best things to come along in my opinion. People who are fantastic and greating game content can package that content without worrying about trying to create and balance game mechanics (which may not be their forte).
D20 license, however, is horrible. The actual D20 license really contrains you to making a WoTC module as far as I'm concerned. Luckily most people who say D20 really mean OGC.
Disclaimer, etc: These opinions are released under the Open Gaming License (OGL) as Open Gaming Content (OGC) and may be used in whole or part in any work that qualifies as OGC. D20 is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast (WoTC) and may only be used within the context of their D20 Licensing program.
Matheren Registered User
Posts: 1840
(1/23/04 12:06 pm) Reply
Re: Campaigns Gone Bad Due to Bad Decision Snowballs.
Quote:I don't think people are 'selling the rights' to WOTC, I think people are recognizing that creative capital can be better used to design game worlds rather than recreate mechanics from scratch for every game.
problem being, the mechanics for d20 quite often don't fit the game. the two I mentioned are perfect examples: as their own games they were a perfect meld. their system was completely built to fit the world, and the world represented the system.
now you put them in d20 and they become "just another class based game". all the flavor is taken out, and half of the mechanics aren't even any longer represented. Seventh Sea just turned into d&d rapier fighters, L5R turned into d&d katana fighters.
Quote:The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 represent the effect of playtesting and balancing on a scale that no other company could ever possibly do.
these changes represent Wizards wanting more cash, that's about it. instead of putting most of these changes into the original 3.0, they said "we'll just release a revised edition in a few years and release what we have now". this is straight from the mouths of the original writers themselves.
Quote:However if I had to guess I'd say that there are likely more talented people employed (full or part time) making quality gaming products today than at any other time in gaming history.
I dunno. Wizards fired most of their writing staff, and a lot of them left before it actually happened to just do freelance stuff. so there's not as much of the "full time hired on writers" thing going on as there was with TSR and such. but there are a hell of a lot more freelance writers and guys starting their own companies.
one perfect example, I think, is Malhavoc Press. I think Monte Cook's one of the best writers in the business right now; his Planescape stuff was great, and his Arcana Unearthed conversion is badass. I'd play that over normal d&d anyday
Quote:Although to be fair, I think FASA actually tanked before D20 and WotC started gobbling up titles. They obviously haven't sold the rights to it yet. Xbox couldn't get the rights to BattleTech and Mechwarrior either.
yep. FASA had been going downhill a long time. Earthdawn never sold worth a @#%$, and Shadowrun only sold well over in europe. they even had a lot of books & novels that we never got.
but they sold the rights to both games a long time ago - Wizkids have been putting out Shadowrun stuff for a few years, and Living Room Games have been releasing new (and reprinted) Earthdawn 2nd edition material.
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