Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
Playing as a rogue or a monk, what are some of the best ways to fight a wizard say...oh if you caught them while they were sleeping?
If you caught them while sleeping...well, just do a coup de gracie...let's see a Wizard survive a DC 30+ Fortitude Check or so :P
But seriously...the most important thing to do...is hit them with a readied action as soon as they start to cast, making a Concentration check difficult.
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
After you attack, if he lives and wakes up, you should still have a surprise round to get another attack (which would still be a sneak attack, no dex bonus due to being surprised if a rogue).
As a rogue you get to add your sneak attack damage to a coup de grace. Between the automatic critical, the sneak attack damage, and the Fort save, there is very little chance of survival. You can also pop off a dispel magic (or bigger) via the Use Magic Device Feat, assuming you are high enough level to do so before hand to try to drop any protections he may have.
Just a quick example to show how brutal this would be, take a level 11 rogue. Shortsword +2. +1 str bonus. +6d6 sneak attack bonus. Just taking an average roll, that would be (((shortsword 3.5 damage)) +2 magic, +1 str) x2)+ (3.5x6))= 34 damage. That is a DC 44 fort save. How many wizards of around level 11 are going to manage a +24 Fort modifier just to have a chance at saving?
The next round is just as bad. He should be surprised. You get another attacs which should hit (no dex, prone bonus) and is a sneak attack. Average hit = 26 damage non critical, so another 26 damage. Summary: 11 level rogue does 34 hp damage first round, forces a DC 44 fort save. Second round rogue does 26 more for a total of 60 hp. Third round could be even worse if you win initiative...
As a monk, you can go the coup de grace route, or go for a full flurried attack action.
11 Monk, +1 str bonus, bare handed. +1 str 1d10 damage. 4 attacks. 26 damage average first round. Wizard wakes up, surprise round, stunning fist him. Third round, full attack action.
Coup de grace monk does 13 damage average and forces a DC 23 fort save. DC 23 fort save for a wizard at that level is still pretty tough to make.
Either way, the wizard is in a world of hurt. At level 13 (two levels higher), your typical wizard will average 32 hp with no con modifier. His Fort modifier is +4, so even versus the monk's lower DC, is still comes out to needing a 19 or 20 to make the save....
You catch a wizard asleep, he should die, horribly.
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
Depends on how creative/evil your DM is. I'd have my wizards protected by all sorts of nifty alarms and items of defense. Wizards have lots of defence against a stab in the dark or a spell. They usually don't bank on large rocks being dropped on them.
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
ok, a little bit of clarification. We have a relatively evil party. My character is pure chaotic rogue, level 4. Well, actually rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3.
Anyway, there is a necro who our characters have discovered plains on using one of us as a minion. So, next session, he will be assassinated while he sleeps.
As a rogue, I could do a coup de grace on him if he is sleeping, and with a heavy crossbow I would deliver 20+1d6 dmg, and his fortitude save to not die would be 30+1d6 right? (10(base)+20(critdmg from bow)+1d6(sneak attk))
He is level 4 wizard, would be impossible unless he rolled a natural 20 and DM decided to give it to him as a critical success so he had a chance to defend himself.
Is this correct?
Makin' things hot since 1983!Edited by: Pharius Ravenslock at: 3/3/04 4:10 pm
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
Don't coup de grace him, because if he has any magic alarms/traps/readied casts if someone tries to attack him, you're going to be toast. Use the heavy crossbow from 10' away. You'll get a bonust to attack for his being prone, he will be denied dexterity bonus for being asleep, and if you've got anything resembling a dexterity bonus yourself, there's almost no way you could miss him, unless he's got some uber bracers of armor or something.
You'll get damage from the heavy crossbow plus sneak attack damage (does swashbuckler give extra sneak attack?). At level 4, he's not likely to have more than 20 hitpoints, maybe 24 if he's got a buffed con. You should be able to get him below zero with the single attack. If you fail, bring along a second heavy crossbow. If I were the DM, I'd give you a single free shot, a full surprise round as he comes to realize he's being attacked, and THEN roll his initiative. He should be toasty by then.
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
Just to clarify, coup de grace does NOT mean you get full crit damage. You just automatically score a crit (roll damage as normal). And yes, the DC for the fort save would be 10 (base) + (crit crossbow damage) + (sneak attack damage). Even with bare minimum damage he will be hard pressed (no better than 50/50) to survive due to the DC being a fort save.
At this level I would still do the coup de grace. Even if he does wake up for some reason, you are adjacent and can start a grapple and all that fun.
If you really want to not coup de grace him, go to 30 feet and do it from there. You still get your sneak attack, and it gives you more breathing room. You can still cover that distance with a normal move action (in leather armor) without having to resort to a charge (although that is not a bad idea in itself).
Don't forget about poisons as well. You are evil after all and a nice (relatively cheap) injury poison is another fort DC save for him to worry about.
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
well, considering I get 4d6+6 on my full attk round. (TWF, off hand weapon is light, weapon finesse, and insightful strike adding my int mod to my dmg), by BAB is +9, 1d6 from each attk, and 1d6 from each attk for sneak attk damage, plus an automatic +6.
at lowest possible rolls, that's 10 dmg on the first round while he is prone. at best, it's 30 dmg.
poisons huh? What would be a good poison to use? forst save poison?
The monk in the party is also in on it. He will be sleeping next to the wizard but won't be asleep, he'll wait for me to spring to action, then move in.
Only problem about not doing the coup de grace, is that I have to walk up to him to do it.
Registered User
Posts: 2489
(3/4/04 5:59 am) Reply
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
coup de grace works great in almost every situation you can use it in - if you don't want ot use it, start off with a flurry of sneak attacks (if you get 4 attacks, that's +4d6 dmg) and have the monk grapple him. Grappled spellcasters can't cast for beans, and grappled opponents are denied their dexterity bonus to AC against all targets other than the person they're grappling, so you would most likely get 8 full sneak attacks on him, which should be way, way more than enough to drop him. Have the monk dealing subdual damage with his grappling attacks, as subdual damage can actually bypass some forms of damage protection such as stoneskin (I think). Once the wizard goes unconscious, coup de grace him, both of you at once if you can swing it. Ain't no wizard anywhere that can survive 8 sneak attacks, 2 rounds of a monk subdualing him while grappling, and 2 coup de graces, especially not around level 4.
(Honestly, if he's a level 4 necromancer you could probably punch him in the face in broad daylight and laugh at his feeble attempts to fight back - spellcasters are pretty crappy until level 6.)
-- Marauder Arafain Entreri, 65 Deceiver
-- Arafein Soulstriker, 54 Champion Relic (deceased)
-- Arafax Kokorozan, 20 Monk Giantfriend (missing)
-- Formerly of Requiem of Souls and Crusaders of Plilo
-- Formerly of The Rathe Server, now of Zebuxoruk
-- My ghetto gear "Once, in the old west, a gentleman shot a professional gunfighter in the back. When asked why he didn't give the other chap a chance to draw, he replied, 'Well, he's dead and I'm alive and that's how I wanted it to be." -- from Red Planet, Robert A. Heinlein
mikebridge Registered User
Posts: 143
(3/4/04 6:12 am) Reply
Re: Best tactics for fighting a wizard?
and for monks, its all about the stunning fist attack, just don't let them do anything. =)
At level 4, your best bet poison wise would be Black Adder Venom (one of the cheaper ones, attacks his con score to make him that much wimpier). By the DMG it is 120gp per dose, DC 11 Fort, 1d6con/1d6 con. Yeah, that fort DC is not awe inspiring, but it is a chance to hurt him right off the bat for up to 3 hp/level (max con damage roll). All the other ones are very specialized but expensive. You could see about trying to have an alchemist bump the DC by 2 or so probably, assuming the DM allows. Of course, it will cost you
If you are alone for the attempt, I still contend coup de grace is the way to go. Unless you get fried on the way in, of course. Either way, in his "lair" you are on his turf. Bare minimum get within 30', fire that poisoned crossbow bolt, then prepare to move the 30' and start either normal combat or a grapple.
The coup de grace gives you the best shot. If you are playing 3.0 vs 3.5, try to get a haste potion and use the free partial action to move up, then a full attack to coup de grace. You could also take a net with you to start the fight, even with the non weapon proficiency penalty you should be able to get him with it.
Play to your strength though. Move in, coup de grace if possible, poison him and wail away (if he lives).
Re: ?
Bear with me as I type it out. From the 3.5 PHB pg 153:
"Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +damage dealt) or die. A rouge also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace."
There is some more to it, but that is the core mechanic of it. Basically, it is a devastating blow to a vital area (throat, temple, spinal cord, etc) on a helpless opponent. The damage is so great and immediate it has a chance to kill outright no matter the actual hit point damage dealt. Rogues are particularily mean with this attack as not only do they do the critical damage like everyone else, they get to add in their sneak attack damage.
Level 19 rogue. Shortsword +4. +2 strength bonus. +10d6 sneak attack damage. Average damage 19 from the shortsword critical, 35 from the sneak attack. This would force a DC 64 (10+19+35) Fortitude save or the victim dies, no questions asked (assuming they are not immune to the coup de grace).
Level 1 rogue. Shortsword. +1d6 sneak attack. Average damage 10 points (7 for the shortsword critical, 3.5 for the sneak attack, rounded down). DC fort save or die of 20.
Granted it is tough to pull off, but when a level one character (and fighters/barbarians would do more damage typically at level one) can force a DC 20 save or die, that shows how powerful the situation is.
Re: ...yeah...
You have WAYYYY nicer DMs then I do.
Nothing like that would ever THINK of being attempted with my DM.
He did sick and twisted things and often bent the core rules of DnD. (Not that it's that huge of an offense, the DM is always right!)
As a classic example, I once had a lvl 7 Ftr/3 Deepwood Sniper...which are just bloody beautiful creatures. I worked carefully on her, crafting particular armor, my bow...and with the unique abilities they get, (such as Precise aim and the concealment decreasings) they are wicked.
DM said no to me, and played all sorts of nasty tricks to me...the end finally came when he put our group up against a relatively same lvl group of people...but they were mages who had concealment spells stacked up the wazoo...and nuked...and well...let's just say it was relatively nasty...throw Otiluke's Resilent Sphere on our tanks...yea...
The rulebook states that concealment spell bonuses don't stack; the highest % one is the one that takes effect. Spell examples would be blur, blink etc...
With them stacked, the mages had a 80% concealment against me. 80%! With my abilities, it dropped to 70% but that meant with my 3 attacks per round at roughly a +20 chance to hit, I missed EVERY TIME.
And we'll just say that for that nifty little spell that mages often use that transports them rapidly between ethereal and prime material planes...thereby increasing concealment BUT giving a % chance to fail at spells..he never rolled %. Dead char.../le sigh
Mayli Fatedefy
Assassin of Tunare
"My world is shadows, my work is unseen, my name unknown...that is what it is to be a rogue, and you shall never see me coming, until it is too late."
Re: ...yeah...
the easyest way to kill a caster is to hire another caster to cast silence on them.... and if your real sleezy cast the silence on a inanimate object by them, like his shoes, that doesnt get a saving throw to resist the spell.
No sound means no spells with verbal componants... wich are almost all of them.
Makin' things hot since 1983!
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies