Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Okay... I was wondering which would be best to wield when I have full haste (VQ, Miraculous Visions, CoCW). Would I go WS in mainhand and Trueborn in offhand? What if I don't have haste? You can see my profile as it is updated every day...
Thanks.
EDIT: Siggy too biggy! Please familiarize yourself with our Forum Rules and keep your signature and avatar under 15K combined. Thanks. ~NocteEdited by: Nocte at: 3/12/04 9:22 am
awarsoca Registered User
Posts: 300
(3/12/04 9:19 am) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
if you raid, destroy that WS and enjoy a a safe life (c:
Trueborn Mainhand/RB off would be my preference, YMMV
Sovran Registered User
Posts: 1
(3/12/04 11:40 am) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Soca and I have had this conversation before.
WS/True would be your best DPS combo. When you go on a raid, swap the hands, or (IF there's another SoS rogue there) just accept that some other rogue will probably be dragging your corpse along with all the rest.
Also, of course, if you don't have much raw ATK, you'll want to keep RB in the offhand and just switch the main hand around.
As he said, YMMV.
Blake Sena Registered User
Posts: 3
(3/12/04 11:03 pm) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Uhh, what's YMMV? =P
Another question...
What about if I had WS/TB on a raid? With my CoCW I'll still max my haste cap. Would I be putting out more DPS that way? or what if you swapped that around... TB/WS?
Registered User
Posts: 2138
(3/13/04 12:24 am) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
You get more attacks with your mainhand, and mainhand damage is what determines backstab. Shank in main is the obvious DPS winner.
I really doubt that 4dly in the offhand makes up for 40 raw, 50+ displayed atk for most Rogues, especially if you're dealing with uncapped haste.
Peorth12 Registered User
Posts: 89
(3/13/04 8:42 am) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Add me to the list of WS/RB combo
Granted i hate the WS because of the dot, i would rather use that over a Trueborn anyday. Id off hand the Rage for the stats, effects, plus u can sell the Trueborn for some easy cash as well.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
16/21 is about Equal to Ragebringer in Offhand with Trueborn in Offhand you will parse lower dps, unless you have well above 1600atk all the time.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
I posted some parses of a 16-19 +1 // 15-25 outparsing a 16-19 +1 // 16-21 combo. 1362 attack vs 1306 - the extra attack from epic made the primary weapon more potent, higher average backstabs and higher average pierce. Offhand only accounts for 25% of your total damage output once you have fero3 and ambidexterity. Extra attack accounted for 2.85% increase in average backstab. Despite going from a 16 dmg offhand to 15 damage, average pierce with epic was 4.2% higher.
dugannw Registered User
Posts: 345
(3/15/04 5:03 am) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Quote:CoCW is only 36%, so with VQ you're not haste caped FYI
Actually, 36% + VQ (68%) does get you above the haste cap. Maybe you are thinking 36% + SLtW (60%, some shaman may use at 65) does not reach the cap.
Another thing, as already mentioned, although Miraculous Visions and another haste appear as buffs on your screen at the same time, they do not add up for your overall haste.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
If you use haste like VQ and haste like on the chanter epic (or speed of the brood), then the stat buff part of VQ is used and the haste part (66%) of the pure haste spell is used.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
I question the relevance of that parse Derrict, at least in terms of real play. I just got an ancient burrower spine last night (14 19), and already had a WS and RB. Personally, i plan on bagging RB.
Now yes, my unbuffed attack is pretty bad, in the 1300s. But my question is, who exp's, LDoN, or esp raids without significantly modifying their attack via buffs and clickies? VERY rarely am I in any group/raid, where i'm not going to have a buffed attack hitting 1500, or on raids, in excess of 1600. Any rogue worth half his weight will see to it that the group shaman, ranger, beasty, whatever ups the attack way past base. Very rare am i in a group with no other classes that can up my atk by a lot.
Knowing RB is the better choice with a poor unbuffed atk is interesting knowledge. However, who the hell cares? I never play unbuffed, and i pity the sad rogue that does.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
So you want me to do the parse with 1561 attack? I have a burrower spine in the bank to use for another weapon setup. Offhand damage only accounts for 25% of your total damage output. Going from a 15-25 to 16-21 or something better has minimal effect on your dps, even with ferocity 3, sinister strike and ambidexterity. You'll only fire a double attack 50% of the time in offhand pre fero3, 67% of the time with fero3. Take into account the 59% hit / miss percentage and you'll see your offhand hits per second pale in comparison to your primary. The extra attack has a greater impact on your primary average pierce damage and your average backstab than the effect of a slightly better offhand ratio since your increasing the effectiveness of 75% of your dps by offhanding epic.
As far as running around unbuffed, you won't always have a class to increase your attack rating. These parses are relevant to show a base comparison; I've done other parses with higher attack to emulate in-game type of group buffs.
Here is the 16-19 +1fire // 16-21 with 1561 attack:
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
I think you might be making it a little too complex.
What i keep hearing over and over, and seems to be accepted is, 10atk=1dps. Doing basic math, RB then adds 4 dps overall, just given the atk only.* (note: i can peg 305 str buffed, with or without RB so i'm not counting the added strength it has)
So, i'm supposed to believe going from a 15 25 ratio in offhand to 14 19 wont improve my overall dps by just a measley 4dps? I probably do well over 150dps total, but lets assume 150dps to give you the benefit of the doubt. Surely, that great a jump in ratio can provide over a 2.6% increase in damage, even if the change is in the offhand. (154/150 x 100 = 102.6%)
(also note, i have 41% haste item)
I look forward to the second parse. I'll be shocked if its higher.
Yalum Registered User
Posts: 2151
(3/18/04 1:50 pm) Reply
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Everyone always forgets the percent sign...
10atk = 1% more dps, until you get enough that max hits (which do not improve with more atk) start to dominate your parses. It's also actual atk, not worn.
So RB is 40 raw atk, 54 actual atk, call it an even 5% dps increase.
RB to Windspeeder is a 15% increase in ratio. Offhand is 25% of overall damage, so Windspeeder is a 3.75% increase in your dps.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
Ok so in my case, i'm looking at a 22.6% increase in offhand ratio (from RB to ancient burrower) (.736/.6 x 100)
25% of that is 5.65%, slightly over the ~ 5% atk improvement RB provides, so from a damage only viewpoint, i'm ok to bag RB even with my low innate atk, if i'm ok with losing a tad bit of resists.
Re: Trueborn, Wicked Shank, and Ragebringer
I dont want to stray too far though from the issue i brought up earlier, which is that even in a moderate high end guild, I almost always have 1561 atk or better on raids, and i'm usually at or near 1500 in groups, buffed.
Given that, should i really sweat RB's attack? Unbuffed attack just seems so irrelevant to me cause i'd be moronic to ever fight that way, solo or otherwise.
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